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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
I'd say you can take that further to criticize people with respect to their ability to contribute to works, but yeah. Wheaton's Law.
Yes, but there's also a difference between "criticism" and "insulting." One is "I don't like Joss Whedon's writing of Black Widow." The other is, "I hope Joss Whedon gets syphilis and dies." One is perfectly fine, the other is not.
I didn't mind Black Widow's characterization in the film because previously, we had only really seen Natasha through her different "masks" - I'd say that the only real scene where Nat was truthful was with Hawkeye in the first Avengers where she says that she's been compromised. He knows her, so she can let her guard down.
In Winter Soldier, she never lets her guard down, and in Age of Ultron, she only really lets it down with Bruce.
@Hodor - THAT. Is a very fascinating analysis.
Didn't look as cute/fascinating on screen as it was on paper, though. At least, to me.
I always thought she should be paired up with either Steve or Hawkeye. The latter is married and the former is...uh, what is it, hasn't got over Peggy or something like that? Whatever it was.
edited 29th Sep '15 3:07:17 PM by dRoy
Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.Well, after they made the point in Winter Soldier of not pairing them up, it would rather odd and somewhat disrespectful to have them do it in Ao U.
As for why they didn't get together in WS...they didn't want to. Simple as that.
Oh God! Natural light!Part of the problem with comparing Winter Soldier Black Widow and Age of Ultron Black Widow is that in Winter Soldier, Natasha never talks about her backstory. At all. Even when she lets some of her guard down with Steve, she still doesn't tell him anything.
But in Age of Ultron, that's changed and she does share with Bruce. If you compare all her other scenes with Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron, they are pretty similar - she fights, she makes quips, etc. In both movies, that's her characterization in battle scenes. But in the quiet scenes, it's much different, because in Age of Ultron, she actually reveals things about herself to Bruce. She developed as a character.
I didn't like how Age of Ultron sort of retroactively dismisses the Widow/Steve friendship in Winter Soldier as just an act by her.
Because in ''Winter Soldier', it's presented as her not being able to completely open up, but still being able to connect on some level by "playing" a (better) version of herself. It's sort of like those takes on Batman in which Bruce Wayne is partly a mask but not completely (and you know, has actual friendships).
And I'd kind of disagree with her opening up to Bruce- I mean she airs more personal background, but I think she had a stronger emotional bond with Steve. Actually, I think the film seems to suggest that Widow sort of chooses Bruce because she sees him as a fellow monster.
edited 29th Sep '15 3:14:05 PM by Hodor2
x6 I'm fine with that - maybe she feels like she can relate to Bruce better than she can with Steve, and while I can see her telling Clint and Fury about the details (if they didn't already know), she probably would have told them by Ao U, so there wouldn't much reason for them to discuss things that we already know.
I'm not even opposed to the pairing. My main problem is that it was very rushed, and thus had little emotional weight behind it.
As far as I'm concerned, go nuts.
edited 29th Sep '15 3:15:56 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!@Very Melon-
That's a good way of putting it. I don't think it's really something I blame on Whedon- it's sort of unavoidable when you have a series of interconnected films which also somewhat stand alone.
And so you get the bare minimum of continuity nods to the characters' development.
edited 29th Sep '15 3:17:54 PM by Hodor2
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Basically. Whedon claimed the reason he broke up Clintasha was because he wanted to show that a guy and girl can be heterosexual and also just friends with each other, but guess what, that's exactly what happened in TWS and it was one of its best received aspects.
It's a really megalomaniacal reason, coming from me who likes but is mostly neutral on the pairing and sick of its Fan Dumb. And not to get into all the other ways that AOU ignored most of what happened in Phase 2.
edited 29th Sep '15 3:19:27 PM by AlleyOop
@Hodor and Alley Oop: Or in the immortal words of The Editing Room
Oh look, I'm back with my catalogue of specialized suits. This completely invalidates everything that happened in Iron Man 3, so I guess everyone can just skip that one.
CHRIS HEMSWORTH
Verily, Thor 2 is similarly without merit or consequence!
SCARLETT JOHANSSON
And Guardians took place in outer space, so it doesn't affect what's going on either.
CHRIS EVANS
Okay, but Winter Soldier is totally important, it established that HYDRA has been infiltrating SHIELD for half a century! Of course, it's been completely dismantled now and this is the very last base that we're about to destroy... shit. Is Phase 2 the Danny De Vito to Phase 1's Schwarzenegger?
GREEN MARK RUFFALO
ENTIRE PHASE 2 CAN BE IGNORED, NEXT MOVIE ALL ABOUT SMALL BUG MAN AND NOBODY CARE!
JEREMY RENNER
Of course, if you want to know why we're even assaulting this fortress, you should watch 41 hours of Agents of SHIELD to see the 65 seconds at the end of Season 2, Episode 19 where Cobie Smulders holy shit this bubble is going to burst really soon, isn't it?
edited 29th Sep '15 3:23:42 PM by VeryMelon
Trying to think how to express this:
So I guess up front there probably is a thing where you either like/identify with Tony or you like/identify with Steve and there's no middle ground.
And because Whedon likes/identifies with Tony, I think Steve's character suffers. Like besides being presented in the wrong and Tony in the right, he sort of generally feels a lot more "rigid, uncool, etc." than he did in Winter Soldier. I guess one could argue that this is how he comes across from Tony's perspective as opposed to his own perspective, but it's not really fair to the character.
Although, I think that Tony's character development (unsurprisingly) suffers the least- I mean the whole Ultron thing is an extension of him wanting to fight crime/save the world without wearing the suit.
edited 29th Sep '15 3:25:59 PM by Hodor2
I'd say the real problem is one that Black Widow shares with everyone else in Avengers 2: Joss ignoring how the characters developed outside of his control.
Except I don't see any examples of that at all. I saw Black Widow is progressing from her Winter Soldier development, same as Tony Stark with Iron Man 3. And, well, Thor didn't really get any development in Thor: The Dark World.
It's a really megalomaniacal reason, coming from someone who is mostly neutral on the pairing and sick of its Fan Dumb.
What? First of all, Whedon didn't "break up" Clintasha - they were never together. He just gave Clint a family. And he did that because he wanted to show how you could be both an Avenger and a normal person - like Clint was, someone who could maintain a separate family life. He didn't do it to trick the fans, although I wouldn't blame him for it. It's his decision - he's the filmmaker. Calling him a megalomaniac because he made a film the way he wanted to make it seems disingenuous at best.
And not to get into all the other ways that AOU ignored most of what happened in Phase 2.
Please tell me what Phase 2 events AOU ignored.
Is it really breaking them up when they weren't explicitly together? Or even very implied to be together?
Forever liveblogging the Avengers
x7 Seems a touch pessimistic. Sure, some additional exposition might have been nice, but the plot is hardly incomprehensible if you haven't seen Agents of Shield.
Is previous movies not having much of an effect on this movie really such a bad thing?
edited 29th Sep '15 3:29:24 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!Re, the Editing Room.
Oh look, I'm back with my catalogue of specialized suits. This completely invalidates everything that happened in Iron Man 3, so I guess everyone can just skip that one.
Yeah, nobody believed Tony Stark wasn't make another Iron Man suit. That was never an option. Even if Joss didn't make the film, Tony would still be back to being Iron Man.
Verily, Thor 2 is similarly without merit or consequence!
...I don't get it, The Dark World mainly took place on Asgard, how would it even affect Age of Ultron in the slightest in the first place? Was there some big revelation for Thor? Did he have a bunch of character development that I missed?
Okay, but Winter Soldier is totally important, it established that HYDRA has been infiltrating SHIELD for half a century! Of course, it's been completely dismantled now and this is the very last base that we're about to destroy
Except it's the threat of Hydra that makes Tony want to create the Ultron program in the first place. It's Hydra who have the Staff which houses the Mind Gem. Hence: Winter Soldier is super important to the movie. Just because Hydra isn't the main villains doesn't mean they don't have any impact on the film. Hell, an assault on Hydra kicks off the film, so if you haven't seen Winter Soldier, you would be completely lost.
edited 29th Sep '15 3:29:53 PM by alliterator
It's a thing that can be argued, but it's not about being good or bad on it's own.
edited 29th Sep '15 3:29:42 PM by VeryMelon

I think the pairing oddly stems from Widow being terrified of the Hulk (and by extension Banner) in the previous Avengers movie. It's like one of those vampire romance thingies where a woman is paired with a guy who is at risk of losing control and harming her. Coupled with Widow seeing the two of them as kindred spirits.
In fairness, I think part of the "I'm a monster" discussion alluded to the fact that Banner is actually a "werewolf", not a "vampire" (i.e. he's not responsible for his actions as Hulk)- which kind of sunk the "kindred spirits" part of the relationship.
edited 29th Sep '15 3:03:55 PM by Hodor2