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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#43601: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:10:13 PM

Age of Ultron needed much better editing. The whole thing tried so hard to be "bigger and better" that it got cluttered. I know people were complaining about how Marvel wanted to cut things out, but given how the original running time of the movie would have been over 3 hours long, it needed a proper edit...just one that was better than what we'd gotten. I'd read somewhere that Whedon actually wanted the film shorter than the first Avengers, and after everything was said and done it was only one minute shorter.

Also, no, Black Widow called herself a monster because she was made into an assassin, but I agree that the editing might have muddied that a little bit for some people.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#43602: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:17:39 PM

I definitely understood that Natasha was calling herself a monster due to being made into a killing machine from a young age, but I can see how the dialogue would seem to imply that she was calling herself a monster for being sterile. The dialogue there could have been better edited.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#43603: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:18:14 PM

Alexander Pierce and Hydra in general are both outstanding villains which both don't get the love they deserve...and I still think that Ronan was the fitting villain for Got G.

Also, I liked this Quicksilver better than Dof P Quicksilver.

Back to War machine...I have thought about it, and if they don't kill the character off, they really need to give him a Hawkeye treatment. Unlike Falcon, who turned out to be a very layered and interesting character and Sif, who at least had some opportunities to shine in Ao S, he ended up very one-note and bland. So either they stick him into one of the other movies and make him more interesting, or they can just as well kill him off.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#43604: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:22:07 PM

Like, I'm fine with him leaving because I didn't think he did that great of a job with the film. He also has a blatant hard-on for Tony Stark (which does not mean he's a hardcore supporter of imperialism, neoconservatism, or neoliberalism, or anarchocapitalism or whatever) and I'm tired of him having the Avengers bicker with each other.

But bickering is what they do. I don't think that's going to go away now that Whedon's gone. They're Marvel heroes; they say "hello" by punching each other in the face. Their next film is going to be the ultimate depiction of inter-Avengers bickering.

edited 29th Sep '15 12:22:34 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#43605: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:22:55 PM

HOW DO PEOPLE KEEP MISSING THAT WIDOW ONLY BROUGHT UP THE KID STUFF IN RESPONSE TO BRUCE FREAKING OUT OVER HIS OWN INFERTILITY

I mean, jesus! Yes, it is terrible that so much of women's agency revolves around kids and romance and shit. But the entire scene is about degenderizing it! Showing that hey, dudes think about kids and family and shit too. And moreover Natasha has clearly made peace with it far better than Bruce has. Bruce is like "hey I've got massive insecurities about my ability to provide a family" and Natasha's like "hey, me too, don't worry about it."

And what's super-weird about the fact that people miss this is what context do people think this scene has? Are people, like, mishearing Bruce and think he's saying "oh yeah I can totally have kids"? Do they think Natasha just randomly wandered up to Bruce and started talking about this? I don't understand!

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#43606: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:29:21 PM

[up]It's because Black Widow is the only female Avengers and woman in the media are constantly defined over their sexuality in one way or another. Most of their storylines either involve fall in love or providing for a family. Which is fine, but females are more than that. One of the strength of Black Widows character was that her back-story was supposedly about the dark things she did as an assassin, the kind of story which is usually attached to a male character. But nope, that is not what she is truly angsting about after all, her true trauma is entirely connected to her inability to squeeze out children.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#43607: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:40:58 PM

Oh, Gosh, that whole debate about Black Widow's infertility isn't dead yet? I mean, yeah, it was a bit clusmy and the romance with Banner was clumsy, but COME ON! It's a bit harsh to doom the entire film or Whedon's writing as crap just for this one moment!

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#43608: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:49:28 PM

[up]It's not just this one moment...the romance is what ruined the movie for me, it took me out of the experience every time it reared its ugly head. This moment is just the cherry on the top.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43609: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:53:56 PM

I agree that the main reason the infertility is pointed out is to highlight how overall mediocre the romance is. It's not about accuracy, just symbolizing how "The most out of left-field love story" really is.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#43610: Sep 29th 2015 at 12:56:40 PM

But bickering is what they do.

It's not the only thing they do.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#43611: Sep 29th 2015 at 1:17:56 PM

Numerous reviewers have criticized that scene because it seems indicative of the "women that can't have children are monsters" viewpoint and I agree with their criticism.

Just because numerous people said it, doesn't mean they are right. It just means that they missed the obvious.

Also, you are criticizing the movie, but you are insulting the person. Again: one is okay, the other is not.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#43612: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:08:40 PM

So at best, Wanda has about as much forethought as Tony Stark. tongue

EDIT: Fuck. Who was I responding to again?

edited 29th Sep '15 2:13:15 PM by nervmeister

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#43613: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:27:07 PM

So, on a less belligerent topic, does anyone know what is the fuel source for Helicarrier? Because that thing must use astronomical amount of fuel. Was it ever explained? If it was, I must have missed that bit.

I like to believe that it runs on Arc Reactor. I don't know, the idea sounds cool.

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#43614: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:36:46 PM

Yeah, for future note, beware the Argument ad Populum fallacy that places which do this kind of analysis like Tumblr tend to have an unfortunate tendency to invoke.

It's a good way to call out Unfortunate Implications insofar as they're often based on perception rather than intent, therefore if significant levels of offense are taken they should be acknowledged as long as they're not based on Insane Troll Logic. However that doesn't mean their interpretation is necessarily correct or not based on a misunderstanding, just that the work was presented in a haphazard way.

Also some people have a tendency to go too far and ascribe such implications to actual intent, or accuse the author of surreptitiously sneaking pro-bigotry messages through the radar, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

[up] The new generation is, but those were destroyed at the end of The Winter Soldier.

edited 29th Sep '15 2:50:41 PM by AlleyOop

stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#43615: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:46:20 PM

[up]There's a word for that. Crit Fic- the act of assuming or prescribing an author/creator's intent based on your critique of the work.

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#43616: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:48:48 PM

@allieterator: they didn't "miss the obvious". It's a valid criticism, one that you seem dead set on ignoring.

And I can criticize the shit out of Joss Whedon's writing if that's what I want, thanks.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#43617: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:52:20 PM

they didn't "miss the obvious". It's a valid criticism, one that you seem dead set on ignoring.

It's not a valid criticism if they completely ignored the context of that scene.

And I can criticize the shit out of Joss Whedon's writing if that's what I want, thanks.

I didn't say you couldn't, I said you shouldn't insult the man. When someone said that they broke Joss Whedon, you said "Good. I'm glad." That's not criticizing his writing, that's wishing him ill.

edited 29th Sep '15 2:52:51 PM by alliterator

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#43618: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:53:43 PM

Lol you guys are still misinterpreting black widows moment. Never live it down... Sigh

edited 29th Sep '15 2:55:18 PM by xbimpy

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#43619: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:55:06 PM

[up][up][up]

Sure, but in context the criticism makes more sense to be "Joss Whedon is an overrated hack more obsessed with playing around with tropes than actual good writing" than "Joss Whedon is a sexist pig who thinks women are glorified babymakers".

Also that bit about being happy at bad things happening to other people. Don't do that.

edited 29th Sep '15 2:57:32 PM by AlleyOop

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#43620: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:56:03 PM

Yes, I know, that's what I'm pointing out (although I don't have the same opinion re: quality as you do). The scene isn't sexist.

edited 29th Sep '15 2:56:32 PM by alliterator

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#43621: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:56:21 PM

I'm not being too fond of Whedon after he basically butchered Black Widow's character on screen.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#43622: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:57:18 PM

And I'm not fond of Stephanie Meyer, but I'm not going to wish her ill.

Criticize works, not people.

edited 29th Sep '15 2:57:31 PM by alliterator

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#43623: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:57:59 PM

@Alley Oop- Why not both? grin

Seriously though, while it's not accurate to say that the scene was about her being a monster because she couldn't give birth, I agree with the comment (forget who posted it) to the effect that it rather detracted from the presentation in Winter Soldier that Widow's guilt is because of her dark, morally compromised past (like many a male hero).

I will say that because I really dislike the personal criticism the creators of Game of Thrones get, it's hypocritical of me to direct the same toward Whedon (and not nice and probably undeserved).

I don't like his hard on for Tony though and I'm glad he's not writing Civil War.

edited 29th Sep '15 2:59:46 PM by Hodor2

dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#43624: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:58:04 PM

I don't think that was a butchering of her character.

Still, why pair her up with Bruce, of all people?

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#43625: Sep 29th 2015 at 2:59:52 PM

[up][up][up]

I'd say you can take that further to criticize people with respect to their ability to contribute to the works, but yeah. Wheaton's Law.

Same for Jeph Loeb. Sure get as mad as you want about him ruining Ultimate Marvel and his inability to write post Creator Breakdown. But don't fucking make fun of his son's death or his depression over it.

edited 29th Sep '15 3:02:00 PM by AlleyOop


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