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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#43551: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:09:29 AM

[up]Wouldn't be surprised if we see four new leaders of HYDRA now (Zemo makes 1).tongue

edited 29th Sep '15 8:11:31 AM by nervmeister

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#43552: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:11:44 AM

I'd like if someone mentions Ward in Civil War and Zemo asks "Who the fuck is Grant Ward?"

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#43553: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:18:43 AM

[up]Yeah, the shows could afford to impact the films in some small way. Like if Fury says he had to be scarce for a bit because he was checking into a series of bombings in Hell's Kitchen for any signs of HYDRA involvement.

edited 29th Sep '15 8:24:13 AM by nervmeister

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#43554: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:23:52 AM

With Black Panther and Luke Cage I count currently six non-white Superheroes in the MCU, and if I would count people without Superpowers it's even more. Granted, we haven't see the two yet, and I hope that they introduce more diverse characters, but I think we are past the point at which a character should have a plot shield due to race or gender.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#43555: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:31:58 AM

We really aren't. Quake and Cage, cool as they are, aren't even in the movies right now. That basically just leaves Falcon and War Machine until Civil War next year. Two non-white heroes in the entirety of the films is not some huge forward thing.

but I think we are past the point at which a character should have a plot shield due to race or gender.

It's not even a race shield thing. I mean, it is partially, but more than that, it's that people begging for a death or expecting a death seem to be kicking themselves. Even without the inevitable shit storm that'd come from it, I don't even get WHY his death constantly comes up as a possibility when there's absolutely nothing to indicate he's dying anytime soon.

Even in Age of Ultron the "big death" was a new character who'd just debuted in that film.

edited 29th Sep '15 8:34:20 AM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#43556: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:39:15 AM

Don't you have the feeling that someone will have to die during Civil war? To show how the conflict escalated? A character which didn't just get introduced to die, but one whose death does matter because he has been around for some time.

edited 29th Sep '15 8:40:56 AM by Swanpride

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#43557: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:49:06 AM

Not really? If someone does die in Civil War I'd expect it to be Captain America, but even then I highly doubt it because he still is contracted for future movies.

The big death escalation scene in the book was when Black Goliath was killed by the Pro-Registration side, and that proved to be a dumb decision because it immediately brought up allegations of Black Dude Dies First and instantly blew away any remaining credibility or sympathy the Pro-Reg side had. Now it was no longer "Two teams fighting over ideals" but "One team of heroes fighting against the group of people who just murdered a hero."

I can't see them making a mistake like that in the movie, especially not since for that scenario to work, it'd be Cap's side doing the killing this time.

edited 29th Sep '15 8:49:44 AM by comicwriter

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#43558: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:58:14 AM

Why do you need Rhodey to die so much? Quicksilver's death off in Age of Ultron was a very clear example of why casually killing off characters is a bad idea.

I'm glad that people are becoming more aware of the Stuffed in the Fridge trope on both genders, even if they tend to overapply it to any time where a woman dies period (ffs I've seen people say Steve and Jan were fridged with 100% seriousness), because it results in authors are realizing that hey, maybe it is lazy and weak writing to resort to killing characters off to generate drama.

edited 29th Sep '15 9:04:28 AM by AlleyOop

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#43559: Sep 29th 2015 at 8:59:00 AM

[up]Maybe Scott Lang will die. I can only imagine the guilt that Sam would feel if that came to pass.

edited 29th Sep '15 9:00:18 AM by nervmeister

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#43560: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:01:39 AM

Why does someone has to die? I'm really annoyed by this idea that someone has to die for things to be dramatic. Killing Quicksilver was a pointless move and it would only be worse with Rhodey.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#43561: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:05:26 AM

[up]It gives the impression that no matter how endearing, funny, established, or protagonist-like these heroes are, there are no guarantees of survival even in this genre. And unlike 616, death most certainly ISN'T cheap.

edited 29th Sep '15 9:06:01 AM by nervmeister

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#43562: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:05:45 AM

Don't you have the feeling that someone will have to die during Civil war? To show how the conflict escalated? A character which didn't just get introduced to die, but one whose death does matter because he has been around for some time.

Yes and that person should be Captain America. Seriously, his death is the only one that makes sense and it's the only one in comic that actually leads to interesting things (Bucky taking over as Cap, "The Death of Captain America" arc, etc).

Any other death would be purely for shock value and that would be stupid.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#43563: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:06:37 AM

[up][up]Unless you're Loki or Agent Coulson or Nick Fury.

edited 29th Sep '15 9:06:59 AM by comicwriter

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#43564: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:07:58 AM

[up]Ugggh. Don't remind me (though I'll give Fury a pass, because it wasn't as much of a stretch as opposed to Kree voodoo or, in Loki's case, bullshit).

edited 29th Sep '15 9:15:32 AM by nervmeister

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#43565: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:08:35 AM

[up][up]When was Loki ever killed off? Fury was also going to survive. I don't think that was ever in doubt.

edited 29th Sep '15 9:08:45 AM by Kostya

Beaver Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43566: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:10:42 AM

[up]

Wasn't he "killed off" in Thor: The Dark World?

edited 29th Sep '15 9:11:25 AM by Beaver

Is this a Jo Jo reference?
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#43567: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:11:27 AM

It gives the impression that no matter how endearing, funny, established, or protagonist-like these heroes are, there are no guarantees of survival even in this genre. And unlike 616, death most certainly ISN'T cheap.

I never got that. There was a quote from Emma Thompson recently where she said she likes superhero films but she feels they have a problem with lack of tension since the amount of sequels means you know the heroes will survive and win. But like, doesn't that apply to franchise films in general?

Even before the MCU, were there people lining up for Batman, James Bond, Indiana Jones, or Star Wars movies going "Hell yeah, I hope the protagonists die in this one!"?

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#43568: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:14:18 AM

[up][up]Loki was never actually dead. Everyone just thinks he is. This was also revealed in the same movie it happened in. I don't consider that "killed off".

edited 29th Sep '15 9:15:08 AM by Kostya

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#43569: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:23:37 AM

Didn't he recruit villains in the main series. Not as a Suicide Squad, where they'd take on impossible missions in exchange for clemency, but more as a death squad?

They were a Suicide Squad. They were kept on nanite chains that could paralyze them with electric shocks if their behavior got out of hand. They weren't a death squad; their purpose was to apprehend fugitive superheroes fleeing the Registration Act. The logic was fairly sound: who has the most experience fighting superheroes? Supervillains, natch.

It did, however, get out of hand in several horrific ways, which is why Stark did not recruit villains for it. One of the others did, I want to say Reed. Stark was opposed to the concept from the beginning and wanted to scrub the entire thing and send all the villains back to jail where they belong. He cooperated with what became the new Thunderbolts through gritted teeth and thinly-veiled disgust, and was regularly treated as the biggest threat to Osborn's rise to power.

Behind the pro-Reg lines, Osborn traded Spider-Man for Iron Man as his archnemesis, with a rivalry that extended beyond Stark's fall from the Director's chair, accelerated with Osborn claiming an Iron Man for himself and Stark permanently depriving him of the ID Registration data, and culminated in Stark's anticlimactic, effortless shut-down of Osborn in Siege.

edited 29th Sep '15 9:27:38 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#43570: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:43:40 AM

Personally, if someone die in Civil War, I would indeed gamble on a black guy, but not War Machine. More like T'Chaka, so he can be replaced by T'Challa in the upcoming Black Panther movie. Then again, it's also possible he will survive and die only in the Black Panther movie, and the fact he fought side-by-side with Avengers will be used to make the Avengers get along with T'Challa later.

On an unrelated note, how would anyone feel about Pepper becoming Rescue in the MCU?

edited 29th Sep '15 9:44:44 AM by Theokal3

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#43572: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:44:58 AM

If anyone dies in Civil War, it should be Steve. But we all know that isn't happening thanks to Contractual Immortality.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#43573: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:45:32 AM

[up][up]I like it. Especially the fact it's a full-body costume.

edited 29th Sep '15 9:45:48 AM by Theokal3

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#43574: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:46:07 AM

That is a pretty cool costume.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#43575: Sep 29th 2015 at 9:52:31 AM

Civil War is ultimately a fight between friends and allies, between two people who deeply respect each other and their opinion but are forced to be at odds over ideological differences. Having people die a la cannon fodder just to up the stakes messes with how the characters work in a situation like that in the first place, and it's something that the original story probably shouldn't have done if they weren't going to commit to what they were doing - treating it so much like an outright war is one of the ways the original story shot itself in the foot (in the movie they seem to be doing more of a fugitive thing).

That's why I brought up Goliath - not because he was an example of Black Dude Dies First, but because his death came as the result of enforcing the law on once allies with such gusto that Iron Man and Reed killed a friend. An event like that should have changed the scope of everything, but ultimately Foster was treated more like C-List Fodder - regrettable, but onto the next big battle.

But if treated with real weight, which the movie should, if people they fought alongside start being gunned down, then it changes the nature of the conflict regardless of which side is the one doing the killing - either now Cap is so anti the legislation that he's fine with armed resistance against America, and doesn't care who gets in his way, or Iron Man is so intent on enforcing it that he'll gun down anyone who doesn't get with the program.

It's not a good look for either of them (and despite the writers not wanting it and trying to paint them both as The Hero in their respective series, both of them looked like that in the original story), but if it isn't going to actually bring about something like that and not do it half-assed then it's certainly not something that should be done just for the sake of having a death. Not in a story like this.

On death towards the end works just fine: Steve's. Regardless of the rest of the story, the nature of his death in the comics works - neither fight fires the shot, but the conflict causes his enemies to get the perfect opportunity to plot against him and ultimately take him from the world. The whole thing becomes a clear tragedy, in a "we could have done so much better" way.

edited 29th Sep '15 9:55:12 AM by KnownUnknown


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