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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#43026: Sep 13th 2015 at 11:04:31 AM

...Why were Red Skull and the SS Officers speaking English?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#43027: Sep 13th 2015 at 11:11:01 AM

Translation Convention, most likely.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#43028: Sep 13th 2015 at 11:14:08 AM

Why were all the aliens in Guardians of the Galaxy and the Asgardians in Thor speaking English? Heck, how come Thor could speak English the moment he arrived on Earth?

Clearly, there's some kind of magic alien language translation... stuff.

edited 13th Sep '15 11:14:40 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#43029: Sep 13th 2015 at 11:17:35 AM

GOTG: Gunn said that Quill has a translator in his helmet thing.

Thor: Even if they didn't visit often I get the impression the Asgardians kept a close eye on Midgard.

All other instances like the Hydra officers probably involve a translation convention.

edited 13th Sep '15 11:18:43 AM by Kostya

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#43030: Sep 13th 2015 at 11:22:55 AM

Thor speaks this strange magical universal language...forgot how it is called. And yes, Peter wears a translator.

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#43031: Sep 13th 2015 at 12:11:40 PM

its called Allspeak. all deities in Marvel comics understand each other because of Allspeak. they understand all languages in their native tongue because lets not think too much about it

edited 13th Sep '15 12:12:13 PM by xbimpy

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#43032: Sep 13th 2015 at 1:27:44 PM

Yeah, all things considered, the only reason Schmidt wasn't a Nazi anymore is because he's a Super-Nazi. A Nazi among Nazis, a Nazi so Nazi that he demanded dominion over even Nazis.

The idea that Hydra is about everyone being equal under Hydra is Pierce's philosophy after about seven decades of motive drift for the organization, IIRC. Schmidt's Hydra was all about being better Nazis than the actual Nazis.

edited 13th Sep '15 1:28:07 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#43033: Sep 13th 2015 at 2:03:43 PM

I agree for the most part. I do think it's possible that the MCU Skull is "apolitical" like Zola in the sense of being indifferent to the ideology but willing to use it as a means to an end.

Like for example, neither Zola nor the Skull would hesitate for a second to use concentration camp prisoners as test subjects, but I doubt either of them has read Men Kampf. Zola is basically an evil(er?)Wernher von Braun.

In contrast, as you say, Pierce is all about "everybody is equal under Hydra". In some arcs, that's also a big part of Baron Zemo's ideology- he wants to subjugate/improve the world and hates his ancestors who were ideological (read super-racist) Nazis.

edited 13th Sep '15 2:22:58 PM by Hodor2

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#43034: Sep 13th 2015 at 2:20:50 PM

how is james gunn already preparing to film GOG 2 before SM TR IW part 1 and CM? o wait they all come after. hes starting early

edited 13th Sep '15 4:16:03 PM by xbimpy

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#43035: Sep 13th 2015 at 3:05:45 PM

One last time guys according to the the Center for Holocaust and Genocide studies, you have to be racist and antisemitic to qualify as a Nazi.

Other details follow - fascism totalitarianism white supremacy / Aryan race eugenics to the point of systematically murdering disabled people too homophobia to the point of systematically murdering queer people too sexism and misogyny, confining women to “Children, Kitchen, Church” very unethical medical research

If Red Skull was an actual Nazi then we would be dealing with a whole other organization rather than a pulpy, fantastical one run by earth's largest megalomaniac who denounced Nazism during the prelude because it's “racist superstition masquerading as junk science”. Racism is a pre-requisite for being a Nazi.

Anything else related to Nazism follows -

Wanting world domination? Check! Unethical medical research? Check! Wanting to silence any dissidents, not allowing freedom of speech? Check! Willing to commit mass murder? Check!

That’s because both Hydra and the Nazis are FASCISTS. Kind of like parts of the same tree, but not the same branch. And do you know how many bad guys in the MCU and action, scifi, and fantasy films can get the same checks without being labeled Nazis with a another name? A lot. Why? It's much easier to write pulpy megalomaniacs rather than genuine skinheads.

In our reality we have organizations and governments with fascist elements like e.g. ISIS and Daesh, North Korea, Scientology or hell, even the US with its’ surveillance through the NSA are most definitely NOT Nazi… but they could definitely be HYDRA spreading their own chaos only to secretly clean up through order.

Having a past association or alliance does not automatically make people Nazis. Schmidt created Hydra within the Schutzstaffel so he could obtain his goals, using the Third Reich as a resource post. His intentions were irrelevant to what the Fuhrer strove for. Hydra’s modus operandi is to infiltrate a group in order to mask their true agenda and gain access to personnel. Thy Nazis were no exception to this fact, which is something I thought Schmidt made clear before and after First Avenger.

Where it comes to any kind of supremacist thinking, the Red Skull believes ALL human beings, regardless of race or faith or ethnicity are inferior, and that the only beings worth anything are superhumans like himself…..and Steve Rogers. Join Hydra and you too can rise.

Hydra in Winter Soldier according to Joe Russo was an expy for the forces within the US government advocating drone-strikes.

Joe Russo - “So we said [to Marvel] if you want to make a political thriller, all the great political thrillers have very current issues in them that reflect the anxiety of the audience…That gives it an immediacy, it makes it relevant. So [Anthony] and I just looked at the issues that were causing anxiety for us, because we read a lot and are politically inclined. And a lot of that stuff had to do with civil liberties issues, drone strikes, the president’s kill list, preemptive technology.”

This was one method at obtaining total control over people's lives. Some branches and heads no longer follow Red Skull's Ubermensch approach but they nonetheless still hold onto the truth that they're capable of making decisions for the rest of humanity because in their eyes humanity is incapable. They want their prefect world emphasized on order and control.

Unlike Nazis, everyone who worked for Hydra was utterly loyal. They were all cackling genocidal supervillains who joined willingly or became brainwashed. As for Nazis? Many were indoctrinated as children because before World War II jobs in Germany required people to be Nazi party members. The BDM and Hitler Youth was active since 1936. Some of these people were ignorant of what the Final Solution entailed while others used their position to save lives. In our reality the Nazi party is much more ambiguous than what the media trained you into thinking similar to post Red Skull Hydra. The moment he "died" Hydra changed and before then Hydra was still changing though its core principal didn't phase out; create chaos for an end game that would benefit the survivors

edited 13th Sep '15 4:08:40 PM by xbimpy

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#43036: Sep 13th 2015 at 3:12:12 PM

Johann Schmidt ''could' be classified as a Nazi variant of some sort. It's only that his "racial purity" relates not to pure Germanic blood, but rather to Erskine's super serum. In the scene he meets with Cap in the exploding facility, he makes pretty evident how he considers he and Cap vastly superior to normal society and how they should rule.

So basically Skull's "Master Race" is himself.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#43037: Sep 13th 2015 at 3:25:58 PM

Because they are still busy with Civil War? Plus, Got G comes first, if I remember the schedule correctly.

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#43038: Sep 13th 2015 at 3:56:35 PM

"Yeah, all things considered, the only reason Schmidt wasn't a Nazi anymore is because he's a Super-Nazi. A Nazi among Nazis, a Nazi so Nazi that he demanded dominion over even Nazis."

I think part of the problem here is that all Nazis are fascists, but not all fascists are Nazis. Fascism and racism go together well because both involve hatred of those outside the group, but I don't think fascism necessarily needs a racism component, especially not the way Nazis viewed race. Schmidt disavowed any racial prejudices in one of the MCU tie-in comics, but that could just be him trying to get Dr. Erskine to work with him. Another part of the problem is that there are so many variations of fascism, that it's difficult to define it. Here is the Wikipedia page and Umberto Eco's essay Ur-Fascism.

edited 13th Sep '15 3:56:53 PM by JBC31187

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#43039: Sep 13th 2015 at 4:12:04 PM

"So basically Skull's "Master Race" is himself."

Yes this is his view point, which still does not meet the requirements for Nazism. He isn't sadistically killing gay people or Jews while preaching to everyone else they should. He's just a standard megalomaniac who thinks he's special and if others join him than they can be too. He already admitted Nazism is basically childish more than once and that only his view point matters. Red Skull is God and Hydra agents are his angels. Everyone else are demons that must be purged. There can only be peace through world domination except the matter was much more black and white

edited 13th Sep '15 4:25:45 PM by xbimpy

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#43040: Sep 13th 2015 at 4:17:57 PM

In the comics, Red Skull tried to stir up the US to hate on mutants more than they already did.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#43041: Sep 13th 2015 at 4:32:06 PM

Comic Red Skull was more inline with Nazism kinda like Zola (you "black-skinned meddler" at the Falcon). He dedicated to the acquisition of power and the destruction “the American Way of Life" but it came at the cost of joining the Nazi party for the laughs. he found killing exciting. Neo Nazis love him. he eventually left Nazism. I think that's because writers couldn't properly write an actual Nazi. Remember when Marvel tried to make Dr. Doom racist?

Ed Brubaker: "I realized a little while ago that the Red Skull is the one major super-villain who is pretty much just straight up evil. He's not crazy; he's just evil.

He's this nihilistic, anarchistic, fascist guy who brings out the worst aspects of all those things. Magneto and Dr. Doom each have moments of redemption and each have a certain humanity that makes them who they are, but the Red Skull would happily fiddle while America burns."

yea he is known for his manipulation. he broke America from within and tricked the Falcon to attack Captain America which capitalized on Captian America's hopes to find someone with his own beliefs

edited 13th Sep '15 4:48:36 PM by xbimpy

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#43042: Sep 13th 2015 at 4:41:59 PM

Comic Red Skull and Zola are much more in line with traditional views on Nazism. In fact as recent as Brubaker's run there was a scene where Zola made a racist remark after Falcon thwarted one of his plans. This is in contrast to the movies where Skull (as others have said) he has his own views that conflict with Hitler's and Zola seems like more of a self-serving coward.

I'm inclined to think that this might be partially due to the fact that they realized they were going to be selling a bunch of Red Skull merchandise in the wake of the film, and that people might be uncomfortable with the idea of Marvel selling merchandise of a literal Nazi to children.

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#43043: Sep 13th 2015 at 4:46:39 PM

outside of comics the Nazi part always gets downplayed GREATLY

edited 13th Sep '15 4:46:54 PM by xbimpy

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#43044: Sep 13th 2015 at 4:56:59 PM

Ok, I know this is old but:

"As for why Ultron kidnapped her: dude was lonely and loved to talk."

That sound like the setup for a Ultron/Widow fanfic, you know?

"the only reason Schmidt wasn't a Nazi anymore is because he's a Super-Nazi. A Nazi among Nazis, a Nazi so Nazi that he demanded dominion over even Nazis."

That sound perfect for a joke "Men, this guy is so Nazi Im feeling jewish around him"

"do you know how many bad guys in the MCU and action, scifi, and fantasy films can get the same checks without being labeled Nazis with a another name? A lot. Why? It's much easier to write pulpy megalomaniacs rather than genuine skinheads."

Also Hitler pretty much made itself as evil villian: long speech, evil uniform, symbol everywhere, a plan that is pretty much kick the dog at great scale...is hard to top that

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#43045: Sep 13th 2015 at 5:25:01 PM

L Apparently civil war has the most brutal and graphic action thus far in a MCU film and sebstain Stan doesn't really want to pick up the captain America mantle

edited 13th Sep '15 5:28:31 PM by xbimpy

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#43046: Sep 13th 2015 at 6:12:45 PM

Holy shit, I don't mean to sound rude but learn to spellcheck, use punctuation, and avoid run-on sentences. I had to read your post several times to understand what you were trying to say.

Apparently Civil War has the most brutal and graphic action thus far in a MCU film. And Sebastian Stan doesn't really want to pick up the Captain America mantle.

Like that.

More on topic, interesting that Stan doesn't want Bucky to become Cap. I kind of agree with him, at least immediately. If Cap doesn't die I'd like Bucky to hang around with some sort of second identity, maybe as the Nomad, or even Ronin in place of Hawkeye (since Bendis doesn't have power anymore).

edited 13th Sep '15 6:45:10 PM by AlleyOop

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#43047: Sep 13th 2015 at 7:44:42 PM

One last time guys according to the the Center for Holocaust and Genocide studies, you have to be racist and antisemitic to qualify as a Nazi.

The Red Skull is racist and anti-semitic in the comics. In the movie, we have no idea because he doesn't come into contact with any black people or Jews, but we can assume he is racist and anti-semitic because he believes that he himself is superior to everybody.

If Red Skull was an actual Nazi then we would be dealing with a whole other organization rather than a pulpy, fantastical one run by earth's largest megalomaniac who denounced Nazism during the prelude because it's “racist superstition masquerading as junk science”. Racism is a pre-requisite for being a Nazi.

1) Stupid Jetpack Hitler is a thing. It can be pulpy and fantastical and still be Naziism.

2) The comic book preludes are not part of the film. They are not canon and are even sometimes contradicted by other films. Therefore: the film has no example of the Red Skull not being racist and since he was a high ranking Nazi, it's fit to assume that he is racist.

Therefore, according to your own logic, the Red Skull is a Nazi.

Boom, mic drop.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#43048: Sep 13th 2015 at 8:06:37 PM

I think the chief reason most supervillains don't exhibit actual nazi beliefs nowadways is simply that Nazi beliefs are incredibly stupid from a modern perspective. Skull and Zola are both supposed to be very intelligent people, so it gets very mind-boggling to the audience when these two masters of knowledge suddenly shift from "genius" to "spouting pseudo scientific bullshit about the superiority of races".

That sort of thing could fly in the 40's when science still allowed some credibility to racist beliefs but in our modern day and age it's laughable and would make bizarre Zola and Skull still hold that belief while being such clever people. Most racist villains nowadways are either from a period where that sort of belief was still held with some credibility or are portrayed as incredibly stupid people.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#43049: Sep 13th 2015 at 8:09:51 PM

Most racist villains nowadways are either from a period where that sort of belief was still held with some credibility or are portrayed as incredibly stupid people.

/implying the former precludes the latter. tongue

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#43050: Sep 13th 2015 at 8:12:23 PM

That sort of thing could fly in the 40's when science still allowed some credibility to racist beliefs but in our modern day and age it's laughable

*checks with other news websites where Donald Trump is still a leading Republican candidate*

Somehow, I doubt that.

edited 13th Sep '15 8:12:32 PM by alliterator


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