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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#43001: Sep 12th 2015 at 4:35:31 PM

Justify to yourselves all you want, but you're still telling someone who's actually a part of that culture that it doesn't sound ridiculous to their culture.

I never said that it didn't sound ridiculous. I said that Marvel would have no reason to change the name, unlike the Sneepers, which does translate in Icelandic to a private part.

And yes, in Norse mythology, Loki's name is Loki Laufeyjarson, so he uses a matronymic. That might be why Stan Lee and/or Jack Kirby thought Laufrey was his father instead of his mother.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#43002: Sep 12th 2015 at 4:49:36 PM

[up]Sigh...

Wouldn't using the mother's name suggests that the father's name isn't known?

According to Wikipedia, Loki uses his mother's name because his father Fàrbauti disowned him for being too small. So hey, Marvel sort of got that part right.

edited 12th Sep '15 4:49:51 PM by Tuckerscreator

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#43003: Sep 12th 2015 at 4:54:47 PM

Farbauti is still in the Marvel universe apparently, except he's Loki's mother there.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#43005: Sep 12th 2015 at 4:57:47 PM

This entire conversation makes me wish there was an alternate Marvel Universe where the Norse gods are based on their mythological counterparts. I think some of the interactions between them would be funny.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#43006: Sep 12th 2015 at 5:27:15 PM

[up][up][up][up] Can you give me a source on that one? I've never heard that before, and I'm not seeing it on the Wikipedia article.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#43007: Sep 12th 2015 at 5:32:27 PM

The Iberian languages actually do adopt the (one of the)mother's surname, as well as the father's. The main surname do tend to be the father's, though.

Indeed but parents don't pass on their mother's name to their kids just their fathers' names.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#43008: Sep 12th 2015 at 6:01:34 PM

So going back to how Hydra is no longer being a Nazi group. I noticed Agents of Shield hints at this being the case in season 2. During one of the flashbacks late in the season a news report mentions that Hydra is a Nazi organization and one of the Hydra agents shoots the TV. He then says "Again with the Nazi stuff" in a tone that implies he's tired of being called a Nazi.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#43010: Sep 12th 2015 at 6:06:34 PM

Well it's not WRONG, they were basically founded by a super-nazi.

And they're still run pretty much by guys who are "Not Technically" Nazis.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#43011: Sep 12th 2015 at 6:45:01 PM

Philosophically they have a lot in common with non-Nazi groups such as certain Communist organizations, who were, y'know, already established as the Nazis' archenemies since the beginning.

Also you can clearly see black people and women among the HYDRA moles during the montage at the end of The Winter Soldier, so the group would've jettisoned the gender traditionalist and racist policies long ago.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#43012: Sep 12th 2015 at 6:58:54 PM

@DrDougsh: Ah, looks like I might've got that one wrong. I went back to Wikipedia and couldn't find it, then found I actually got it from the Sadly Mythtaken page, whose wording is unclear and makes it seem like it's myth-Fàrbauti's action, not comics-Fàrbauti. After that I tried searching around and only came up with this, which just reinforces the lack of clarity. So it's a potential theory but not as definite as I thought.

edited 12th Sep '15 7:02:09 PM by Tuckerscreator

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#43013: Sep 12th 2015 at 9:27:44 PM

Re: un-intimidating names. Granny Goodness doesn't count. Her name is supposed to be ironic considering what a monster she is.

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#43014: Sep 13th 2015 at 5:17:44 AM

Red skull killed Nazis in first avenger after being annoyed by them and said everyone is equal under hydra. They aren't nazis because they don't care about Nazi ideology. Hitler was just their bank. Now people like Ward use Hydra for their own game

edited 13th Sep '15 7:14:16 AM by xbimpy

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#43015: Sep 13th 2015 at 5:59:46 AM

That actually makes a lot of sense...after all the Red Scull didn't fit into the Nazi ideal, so naturally he would disband it in favour of another form of superiority.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#43016: Sep 13th 2015 at 6:17:25 AM

Hitler didn't even fit into the Nazi ideal. As is often the case with tyrannical systems, the rules really only exist for the poor.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#43017: Sep 13th 2015 at 6:40:19 AM

Yeah, Hitler was far from being an Aryan. And somehow...

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MapleSamurai Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#43018: Sep 13th 2015 at 7:48:52 AM

[up] Actually, EVERY Nazi was far from being Aryan. "Aryan" actually refers to an old Indo-Iranian ethnicity, and the Nazi just appropriated the name for their Germania master race ideology.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#43019: Sep 13th 2015 at 8:35:09 AM

True, but Schmidt apparently originally thought himself to be perfect and then he wasn't anymore, at least not visually. So he talked himself into being something better than mere humans, no matter how he looked.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#43020: Sep 13th 2015 at 8:46:39 AM

Red skull killed Nazis in first avenger after being annoyed by them and said everyone is equal under hydra.

Um, no, the Red Skull didn't kill them because "everyone was equal under Hydra." He killed them because they were interfering with his plan to bomb a bunch of major cities, including Berlin.

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#43021: Sep 13th 2015 at 10:13:00 AM

You just phrased my comment differently. I gave no reason as to why he was annoyed by the Nazis who visited him and I gave no reason why he remarked equality under his organization. Your last sentence didn't inform me anything I didn't already know.

Red skull only believes in the most advanced of humanity should live alongside of him and what that lifestyle would've been like is something none of us can answer because he didn't succeed. Instead his followers interrupted it their ways doing their own things

No matter how much those who think the two are one and the same there is no proof hydra was ever directly linked to the Nazi party beyond its resources. The ultimate fate of the Nazi party simply faded as hydra took over the world

edited 13th Sep '15 10:36:20 AM by xbimpy

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#43022: Sep 13th 2015 at 10:27:55 AM

You just phrased my comment differently.

No, once again, the Red Skull never states that "everyone is equal" under Hydra. He very clearly believes in his own superiority. And he is, after all, a Nazi, even if he breaks away from Hitler. He breaks away from Hitler not because he disagrees with Hitler's ideology, but because he thinks Hitler is thinking too small.

SS Officer 1: The Führer is not accustomed to being ignored, Herr Schmidt. He funds your research because you promised him weapons.

SS Officer 2: You serve at his pleasure. He gave you this facility as a reward for your...injuries.

Johann Schmidt: A reward?! Call it what it is...exile! I no longer reflect his vision of Aryan perfection!

SS Officer 1: You think this is about appearances? Your HYDRA division has failed to produce so much as a rifle in over a year, and we have learned through local intelligence you had mounted a full-scale incursion into Norway!

SS Officer 2: The Führer feels- how does he put it?- the Red Skull has been indulged long enough!

Johann Schmidt: Gentlemen, you have come to see the results of our work. Let me show you. [shows them to his lab] Hitler speaks of a Thousand-Year Reich, but he cannot feed his armies for a month. His troops spill their blood across every field in Europe, but still he is no closer to achieving his goals. [pulls sheet off Tesseract-powered laser cannon]

SS Officer 1: And I suppose you still aim to win this war through magic?

Schmidt: Science. But I understand your confusion. Great power has always baffled primitive men. HYDRA is assembling an arsenal to destroy my enemies in one stroke, wherever they are, regardless of how many forces they possess, all in a matter of hours.

SS Officer 2: Your enemies?

Schmidt: My weapons contain enough destructive power to decimate every hostile capital on Earth. Quite simply, gentlemen, I have harnessed the power of the gods.

SS Officer 2: Thank you, Schmidt.

Schmidt: For what?

SS Officer 2: For making it clear how obviously mad you are.

SS Officer 3: [studies a map of all European capitals to be targeted, and sees one particular place] Berlin is on this map!

Schmidt: So it is. [aims cannon at the SS officers]

SS Officer 3: You will be punished for your insolence! You will be brought before the Fūhrer himself! [Schmidt kills him and Officer 2]

SS Officer 1: [cornered at the locked door] Schmidt! [vaporizes under laser blast]

Schmidt: My apologies, Doctor, but we both knew HYDRA could grow no further in Hitler's shadow. Hail HYDRA.

HYDRA Officers: Hail HYDRA!

Dr. Arnim Zola: [Schmidt looks to him and Dr. Zola reluctantly says] Hail HYDRA!

You see? He never disagreed with ideology, he just wanted to be out from "Hitler's shadow." He believed himself to be a god, rather than a man. Modern day Hydra may employ any and all races, but 1940s Hydra was still a Nazi organization, just with delusions of godhood.

edited 13th Sep '15 10:29:01 AM by alliterator

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#43023: Sep 13th 2015 at 10:49:22 AM

"You see? He never disagreed with ideology, he just wanted to be out from "Hitler's shadow." He believed himself to be a god, rather than a man. Modern day Hydra may employ any and all races, but 1940s Hydra was still a Nazi organization, just with delusions of godhood."

Do you know what Nazi ideology is because Red Skull never showed any signs he cared for nor did his followers. The points you made do not demonstrate Nazism http://www.nazism.net/about/nazi_ideology/. He only cared about Übermensch. Hilter was his bank, a gateway into creating Hydra. His plans for Hydra obviously did not follow Nazism if you actually know what Nazism is.

- "HYDRA from Captain America: The First Avenger are explicitly stated to have started as a Nazi deep science division, but move away from the Reich after the Red Skull plans on bombing Berlin as part of his plan for world conquest. He even states that due to his deformity, he no longer fits with Hitler's perfect Aryan ideal. Despite this, HYDRA still uses a "Hail HYDRA!" cry and salute that seems suspiciously close to the "Heil Hitler!" salute. Note that HYDRA seems to have at least moved away from the racial purity angle of the Nazi regime, as Jasper Sitwell, a brown-skinned Latino man, is seen as a HYDRA agent in Captain America: The Winter Soldier. This is given a big fat Lampshade Hanging in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Ward: I'm not a Nazi! Skye: Yes you are! That is exactly what you are! It's in the S.H.I.E.L.D. handbook, chapter 1! The Red Skull, founder of HYDRA, was a big, fat, freaking Nazi! HYDRA in the MCU seems to be something of an inversion, as despite being formed from a Nazi-splinter faction, they lack the nationalism and racial purity associated with Nazism and are borderline Terrorists Without a Cause."

Hydra is not just a Nazi by another name played straight like our own website points out. Hydra is Hydra. Something entirely different with its own set of beliefs irrelevant to what Hilter wanted and believed in. He put his faith in the supernatural and science, not Germanic supremacy. He bascially wanted what his comic counterpart grew into - Marvel Encyclopedia vol 1: "changed by years of battles with Captain America, the Red Skull denounced Nazism as an outdated philosophy and adopted anarchy as his cause. As the Red Skull sees it, in a world without governments, the powerful will rule the weak."

edited 13th Sep '15 11:04:58 AM by xbimpy

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#43024: Sep 13th 2015 at 10:53:12 AM

Nothing you are saying is contradicting the fact that the Red Skull's Hydra is a Nazi organization. The Red Skull doesn't employ Jasper Sitwell, that's seventy years later; all of '40s Hydra is still Aryan. The Red Skull very certainly believes in his own superiority to other races and creeds.

edited 13th Sep '15 10:54:58 AM by alliterator

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#43025: Sep 13th 2015 at 10:55:03 AM

[up][up]nazism dot net? what the hell?? that's not a white supremacist site, is it??

edited 13th Sep '15 10:55:20 AM by higherbrainpattern


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