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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42926: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:38:24 AM

There's a difference between building a transmitter and breaking open a heavy iron door. Even Bruce needed to use a huge freaking gun to break it open. And Bruce wouldn't have even been there if she hadn't led him.

edited 11th Sep '15 10:38:44 AM by alliterator

HextarVigar That guy from The Big House Since: Feb, 2015
That guy
#42927: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:38:25 AM

They could call themselves Totally Not With Those Nazi Guys.

And then watch people stumble over how to say the acronym.

Your momma's so dumb she thinks oral sex means talking dirty.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#42928: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:41:24 AM

Although in-universe it's probably explained by Ultron's conflicting programming between protecting humans and wanting to wipe them out, I have to say there's something kind of weird about the super-strong and omnicdal ultron putting Nat in a cell and monologuing at her like he's Dastardly Whiplash and she's Penelope Pitstop.

edited 11th Sep '15 10:41:54 AM by Hodor2

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#42929: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:42:39 AM

We know he likes monologuing though and he lost all his monologue buddies when the twins defected.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#42930: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:48:10 AM

Widow's kidnapping makes less sense the more I think about it. Why would Ultron not kill her just before he left his base now that he knows the final battle will begin? Why would he put her in a cell full of equipment? Why does he care so much about monologuing to her if he mocked this himself in Africa? Why does Widow make no attempt to escape after the distress call? If the deleted scene had her using the Chitauri weps to escape, why didn't she do that before Bruce got to her?

"He starts monologuing! He starts this prepared speech about how feeble I am compared to him, how the world will soon be his!"

There's a difference between building a transmitter and breaking open a heavy iron door.
So Black Widow, THE master spy, can't lock-pick a jail door. Even though she's broken out of far worse in the previous films and there's all that equipment in the cell.

edited 11th Sep '15 10:50:17 AM by Tuckerscreator

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#42931: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:52:05 AM

[up]The scene felt like the writers were trying to make some kind of nod to 616 Ultron kidnapping Wasp (he wanted a mate badly). But given the liberties taken with the MCU version, it just came off as OOC instead.

edited 11th Sep '15 10:53:59 AM by nervmeister

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42932: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:53:09 AM

So Black Widow, THE master spy, can't lock-pick a jail door.

It's probable that Ultron crushed the lock so it couldn't be picked.

As for why Ultron kidnapped her: dude was lonely and loved to talk. Previously, he talked a lot to Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, but then they left even after he begged them to stay, and so he was just desperate for companionship, man. He wanted to monologue (although he made sure not to reveal his master plan) to someone and Black Widow was there, so there you go.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#42933: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:55:11 AM

If the deleted scene had her using the Chitauri weps to escape, why didn't she do that before Bruce got to her?

???? because it was a deleted scene. The circumstances it represented are no longer valid.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#42934: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:55:19 AM

[up][up]Your justifications for the poor way Widow was handled in Age of Ultron are getting more and more flimsy.

edited 11th Sep '15 10:55:45 AM by higherbrainpattern

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#42935: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:55:40 AM

If Ultron crushed the lock so it couldn't be picked, either showing him doing so or a throwaway line about how the door's inoperable would be in order.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#42936: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:56:38 AM

There are other ways besides just the lock. Pick a movie, any movie, where the hero gets locked in a cell, and all they need is a handful of paper clips, a wet cloth, or a pen clip to crack the hinges or the bars or the lock. Except this film, for some reason.

edited 11th Sep '15 10:58:45 AM by Tuckerscreator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#42937: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:57:14 AM

Why not showing her breaking out the moment she realizes that the Avengers are around and meeting up with Bruce later? That would make much more sense for her character.

Plus, Bruce comes off as really douchy when he says he wants to flee with her just as the Avengers need them both the most. The scene would work much better if Bruce simply said that he didn't want to transform because of what happened last time and she forced him to.

edited 11th Sep '15 10:58:43 AM by Swanpride

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#42938: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:57:33 AM

[up][up]Ultron doesn't need paper clips in his evil lair. He doesn't write letters or bathe either. tongue

edited 11th Sep '15 11:00:08 AM by nervmeister

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#42939: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:00:21 AM

I think its a mistake to get bogged down in specifics. The general fact is that Widow shouldn't have been put into that situation.

Its like someone mentioned earlier, the Smurfette factor. If you have only one woman on the team maybe think twice before having her be captured and having her have the romantic arc and having her the one that can calm the beast and etc.

Scarlet Witch joins too late and does too little to mitigate this.

If Tony didn't need to make Vision I would have suggested him for Ultron's prisoner. Ultron would LOVE to monologue at daddy.

Hell, rewrite the movie to make that be the outcome. Do it.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#42940: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:03:42 AM

I think the biggest mitigating factor in Widow breaking herself out is that there should never be a point where she's unsupervised. There should always be 1-3 Ultron drones monitoring her. The transmitter makes sense because it's something small she can keep secreted away, but if she started breaking the door off its hinges or something, Ultron should notice and do something about it.

That said, I agree that Widow shouldn't have been put in that situation in the first place. Either she shouldn't have been captured or they should have done more with the idea that Ultron kidnapped her to be his Replacement Goldfish for the twins rather than throwing her in a cell and doing a villainous monologue.

MacGyvering a solution is silly in this circumstance, but psychologically manipulating one? That's entirely within her skillset.

edited 11th Sep '15 11:05:55 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#42941: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:09:47 AM

Agreed. If the film had shown a pack of Ultron drones guarding her cell, I still would hate the damseling, but at least it'd make sense why she's not breaking out.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#42942: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:12:22 AM

Yep, and if they would shown her playing mind games with Ultron, it would feel that there is a point to he capture other than just sending out Ultron's location (which is something the Twins could betray to the Avengers just as well).

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#42943: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:16:08 AM

I think this is symptomatic of how the writers of the MCU have no idea what to do with Widow and Hawkeye. Widow's a spy, Hawkeye's a sniper. Both of these skillsets are potentially devastating but don't have quite the EPIC CGI BATTLE flavor to them, so they spend most of their time just running around hitting dudes.

The first Avengers had some idea how to use them, at least. Age of Ultron just has them as different flavors of Cap's Badass Normal thing.

EDIT: Hawkeye taking out bunkers with precisely targeted explosive arrows through their firing slits in the Cold Open was pretty good. As much of a missed opportunity as Widow never getting to manipulate Ultron is, the equivalent missed opportunity for him is never getting to land an arrow on Quicksilver.

edited 11th Sep '15 11:18:39 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42944: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:19:44 AM

I object to the "she should never have been captured" reasoning. If Black Widow is never placed in any real danger, then it comes across as if the film is specifically protecting her. I agree that it looks bad since she's the only female on the team at the time, but that just makes me want them to include more female members.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#42945: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:21:29 AM

What are you talking about? Black Widow is placed in danger every time she sets foot on a warzone.

Does it detract from Thor's character that he was never imprisoned by Ultron?

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#42946: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:21:56 AM

@Tobias in 42943:

Just thinking something along those lines- I think Widow worked the best in Winter Soldier. Part of it is probably the different writers, but it's also a fish/pond issue. Widow and Hawkeye seem useless when their on a team with "heavy hitters" and fighting superpoweful enemies, because as you say, Widow is a spy/assassin an Hawkeye a sniper. However, when you put them with other badass normals/less enhanced characters, their abilities stand out more.

Actually, Cap himself sort of has the same problem. I mean think Whedon doesn't like him, but besides that, he also comes off as less useful when paired with superpowered characters and facing superpowered enemies.

So, it works in Winter Soldier because you have Cap as a "big fish in a small pond" who has superior abilities to other soldiers but can still be challenged by badass normal/lightly modified villains and also isn't so advanced that Sam and Widow feel useless. Really, their only deficiency compared to Cap is that he can take a lot more punishment. In terms of dishing out they are fairly equal.

edited 11th Sep '15 11:25:45 AM by Hodor2

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#42947: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:25:07 AM

Cap's best asset is leadership, which is another skill that's difficult to showcase impressively in a high-octane CGI explosion party. Winter Soldier did it best, I think, with Cap's big damn speech at the Triskelion.

If Age of Ultron's climax had been a bit more complicated than a high-stakes game of Capture the Flag, Cap, Widow, and Hawkeye might have had more to do.

edited 11th Sep '15 11:26:06 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#42948: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:26:24 AM

She worked the best in Winter Soldier because her role in it was entirely character based. She was the perfect choice for a character which would contrast well with Steve's righteous soldier mentality, and a lot of scenes in the movie are about showing how differently those two characters are approaching certain situations.

She is also the perfect choice for a character who would do what needed to be done and force Bruce to transform. But I don't think that the romance was necessary to make this moment impactful. I think the betrayal of a team mate who stood by you in many battles is in a way worse than the betrayal of a one week perhaps love interest

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#42949: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:27:12 AM

[up][up]Good point there too.

Sorry. I tend to be wordy. But basically, the Avengers movies rely a lot on scenes of the team being rushed by mooks and using their respective skills against them. It doesn't serve Cap, Widow, or Hawkeye's strengths.

edited 11th Sep '15 11:27:43 AM by Hodor2

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#42950: Sep 11th 2015 at 11:27:27 AM

[up][up] Her role in it was also spy-based. Her contribution to the climax was built on infiltration and subterfuge rather than "Kick in the door and beat up all the dudes!"

edited 11th Sep '15 11:28:42 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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