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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#42901: Sep 11th 2015 at 12:32:09 AM

Huh? Where the hell did you see that? She doesn't fail the test - she kills the man and graduates. That's why she was sterilized - it was the last thing they did to her before graduation.

If I remember correctly, she screws up killing the guy but Madame B knows full well by now that Nat is too skilled to make such an amateur mistake and has her "graduated" anyway. The scene was pretty foggily edited, a bunch was happening in that part.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42902: Sep 11th 2015 at 12:34:05 AM

I don't think that happens at all. I remember the scene - she shoots the guy and graduates.

stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#42903: Sep 11th 2015 at 12:48:44 AM

No extended Adventures of Thor and Selvig scene?

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#42904: Sep 11th 2015 at 1:27:31 AM

Thor dived in the pool conversed with the norn who spoke through selivk or something like that. The major difference someone was translating a conversation via possession by a chic. It wasn't an ad adventure just a quick stop.

The adventure would play out like this. Thor meets selivk. They ride but half way Thor says this vechile will never get us there fast enough. Then he punches a window holds out his hand a majinor arrives from an ally he left it at. He transforms in the car, grabs selivk, hammers the door open, flies into the clouds, selik screams about how crazy Thor is while Thor tells him its am emergency. They land at the cave, norn pops out of nowhere, says son of Odin if you seek out truth you must be willing to die for it, the ground captures selvck in a rock box, Thor takes his stance, norn gets covered in the rocks around the cave and turns into a stone dragon,but each swing Thor takes isn't effecting them until he takes a blow for selivk. The norn stops, says that's how your journey began bow that's how your journey ends. The inevitable approaches son of Odin. It's reveled it was just an illusion. Born tells them to proceed, the scene happens but with more words,and then the two fly out

edited 11th Sep '15 1:51:33 AM by xbimpy

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#42905: Sep 11th 2015 at 1:29:19 AM

Tuckercreator your adding stuff onto the scene...

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#42906: Sep 11th 2015 at 2:12:22 AM

She got chewed out for being "sloppy" and "pretending to fail" in her memory. I think it was pretty specific that Natasha tried to avoid it and the very fact that this is her worst memory/fear suggests that she is not over it in the slightest. And the solution the director presents is "hey, take the guy who can't have family either"? There is so much wrong with that. If they go for the sterilization, then they should have written a scene between Natasha and Laura in which Laura reminds her that she can have whatever she wants, even a family. You can keep a woman from reproducing, you can't keep her from settling down and having some resemblance of family.

Females which are carried bridal style in Age of Ultron: Scarlett Witch by Quicksilver (multiple times) Scarlett Witch by Vision (when the city crashes down) Black Widow by the Hulk

In short every female Avengers gets carried around at least once.

Granted, most of the male characters can fly, but Steve and Hawkeye can't and we never see them getting carried around, they are allowed to jump into safety on their own.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42907: Sep 11th 2015 at 7:02:14 AM

Females which are carried bridal style in Age of Ultron: Scarlett Witch by Quicksilver (multiple times) Scarlett Witch by Vision (when the city crashes down) Black Widow by the Hulk

Black Widow is never carried bridal style by the Hulk. I remember it very clearly that he carries her on his back.

Also, your reasoning regarding Natasha and Bruce is supposition at best. Natasha doesn't like him because he can't have children, too, she clearly explains that she likes him because he runs away from his power instead of embracing it like the others.

edited 11th Sep '15 7:03:49 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#42908: Sep 11th 2015 at 7:18:10 AM

That's interesting about cutting/changing Iron Man and Cap being antagonistic the whole film.

I'm not sure if it would have worked better, but it's interesting to know that because as it is, it's sort of like we got a couple of scenes where Cap is really angry at Tony and I guess it sort of contributes to my thinking Whedon is using Tony as a mouthpiece and Cap as a straw man because of the fact we don't see reciprocal behavior.

In theory, having Cap and Tony be antagonistic all throughout the film would help segue into Civil War.

But I don't know how well that would work out in practice. I'm pretty sure the audience is meant to be on Cap's side in Civil War given that it's a Captain America film, but Cap was backing the wrong horse in Age of Ultron.

I'm not sure, "Cap is a soldier without a cause, endlessly searching for a fight, unable to derive meaning from his life unless he has a war going on, and Tony is a brilliant visionary who created the Vision and is generally right about everything," would have been a great setup for Civil War. Downplaying the actual conflict between their ideologies and postponing that for next movie was probably a good idea.

You know, I've been thinking, if Hydra was that serious about distancing themselves from Nazism, they should have picked a new name.

And a new salute and chant that doesn't immediately invoke the image of "Heil Hitler!"

Black Widow is never carried bridal style by the Hulk. I remember it very clearly that he carries her on his back.

This is true. He doesn't carry her, she rides him. If he carried her, she wouldn't have fallen off and rolled painfully across the forest ground when he landed.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#42909: Sep 11th 2015 at 7:22:51 AM

I doubt Hydra cares too much about people noticing the Nazi parallels. Until recently they were a secret society so it's not like people regularly saw these things.

edit: Hydra isn't a unified organization anymore either. It's more like a coalition of terror cells and spies that consider themselves associates.

edited 11th Sep '15 7:23:57 AM by Kostya

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#42910: Sep 11th 2015 at 7:35:38 AM

[up][up]

RE Tony and Cap, I agree- I mean in this instance, Cap was always going to be wrong and Tony right. What I was more thinking of is that it's like for 90+% of the film, you have the usual camaraderie/snarking between the two and Tony is presented as just his usual "lovable" self.

But you also have the isolated scene of Tony talking about putting an Iron Shield (forget the quote) around the world as well as a couple instances of Cap being furiously angry at him. Cap seems unreasonable because except for that line, Tony isn't really acting like the Eisenfuhrer nor has he really been antagonizing Cap.

Basically, it's like Cap is angry in a way that might fit better in a film where the two are consistently at odds.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#42911: Sep 11th 2015 at 7:38:52 AM

So HYDRA is founded on the belief that mankind can't be trusted with its own freedom. It would be funny to see the Insane Troll Logic behind that belief.

Man A: "You know you guys technically are of mankind, right? So technically, according to your philosophy, you shouldn't be trusted to do as you please either!"

HYDRA: "Maybe. But somebody has to dominate the human race so it can prosper."

Man A: "And you think killing millions of people will lead to the prosperity of mankind?"

HYDRA: "Yes."

Man A: "But that's utterly demented."

HYDRA: "Exactly!. Humans are utter murderous apes who need to be ruled and guided in the right direction! That's what we're here for. You're welcome!"

Man A: "What? But you're....Phhgt! Gyah!" **storms off**

HYDRA: "See? You're enraged so easily by hypocrisy and paradoxes. Accept our rule, and you'll be happier."

edited 11th Sep '15 7:44:16 AM by nervmeister

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#42912: Sep 11th 2015 at 8:00:11 AM

"She was a living weapon, much like the Hulk, no matter if she was bred to be one and he became one by accident."

But there is a diferent: Hulk is more of a condition in Bruce banner than a truly weapon, he is a walking disaster waiting to happen. Natasha was made as a weapon, not only with her habilities but her mentality was well, Banner can in theory get rid of Hulk, Natasha...not so much.

" It would make way more sense to send Thor, Steve or even Tony in...but wait, they are men."

No, they will try to punch hulk into submision, and we see how that play out.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#42913: Sep 11th 2015 at 8:05:07 AM

[up][up] A lot of people understand the basic principle that people are stupid and prone to making bad choices. Many of those people also assume that they are the exception. The higher up the IQ you go, the more visible this becomes. This is why the most brilliant people also tend to be the stupidest.

Someone who considers himself a dumbass will think about things more cautiously because he understands that he's liable to make bad choices if he rushes into a decision. Someone who considers himself the smartest person in any given room is more likely to rush to a hasty decision, secure in the knowledge that he's too smart to fall for a dumb idea.

It's why the Kansas City Shuffle works so well.

edited 11th Sep '15 8:08:13 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#42914: Sep 11th 2015 at 8:18:30 AM

[up]Or convince him/herself that say, a machine he or she built works perfectly and not bother to give it one last checking over at another's behest....

edited 11th Sep '15 8:19:05 AM by nervmeister

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#42915: Sep 11th 2015 at 8:54:47 AM

Hulk carries Black Widow bridal style at the very end of the movie. He jumps with her and then lays her carefully down at the Helicarrier.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42916: Sep 11th 2015 at 9:13:33 AM

Are you sure? Because I'm pretty sure he was carrying her with one hand and then put her down with two, which doesn't indicate bridal style at all.

Also, this isn't really indicative of anything in the movie. It's pretty much the tiniest complaint I've ever heard about Age of Ultron. And it doesn't even make any sense.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#42917: Sep 11th 2015 at 9:23:38 AM

[up]Yeah, it is just a detail, but those details pile up. If you put this together with BLACK WIDOW getting rescued from her cell by Bruce - not any other Avenger, not even the Hulk, just puny little Bruce - and the fact the only main female is put in an awkward love-story combined with unfortunate implications - and the fact that the movie still doesn't pass the Bechtel test unless you count a very, very brief exchange between Natasha and Laura - then you have a problem.

edited 11th Sep '15 9:24:24 AM by Swanpride

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42918: Sep 11th 2015 at 9:32:26 AM

- and the fact that the movie still doesn't pass the Bechdel test unless you count a very, very brief exchange between Natasha and Laura - then you have a problem.

Natasha and Madame B. also have a conversation in her flashback, as well as the Natasha and Laura scene (neither of which are about men).

Also, the only reason Black Widow was captured by Ultron and needed to be saved was because she was the one to take away the cradle with the Vision. Natasha is the one that disrupts Ultron's plan so much and basically causes it to fail - without her, there would be no Vision and hence no way to defeat Ultron.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#42919: Sep 11th 2015 at 9:43:58 AM

[up]Yeah, and that as well that she put everything else above her own wishes like a true hero are the only aspects which rescue her character in the movie.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42920: Sep 11th 2015 at 9:52:29 AM

So basically the only reason she has to be rescued is because she saved everyone else's asses.

I mean, I understand the frustration in seeing one of the only female characters getting saved by a male character...but at the same time, Black Widow has already proven how badass she is. For her to be so badass that she can, what, fight her way out from Ultron, an evil robot, would make her seem more of a Mary Sue. The movie balances out her own badass moments with the fact that she's also human and thus can get captured.

I mean, Hawkeye gets injured within the first five minutes of the film and then later gets rescued by Quicksilver. He needs more help than Nat ever does.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#42921: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:28:41 AM

But that very last bit brings up an interesting question that's been niggling at the back of my head. When was the last time a male character expressed regret that he had his ability to have children robbed from him (and not in the context of overall virility)?

The highlander movies do some stuff with that.

Not good stuff from what I hear but whatever.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#42922: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:31:36 AM

[up][up]At the beginning of the movie Natasha asks for help to deal with gun, which keeps firing. I don't mind that at all. Nor would I mind it if Ultron had secured her in a way in which it is believable that she can't escape on her own. But he puts her in an iron cell with a lot of equipment and then she gets rescued by Mr. Normal, not even by one of the superpowered Avengers, and not just any Mr. Normal but her so called love interest. You can BET that this bothers me.

edited 11th Sep '15 10:31:48 AM by Swanpride

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42923: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:34:36 AM

Yes, he pushes her into an iron cell with a lot of equipment...at which point, she builds a freaking transmitter and transmits her location. If that's not rescuing herself, I don't know what is.

edited 11th Sep '15 10:34:53 AM by alliterator

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#42924: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:36:22 AM

I think in general, along the lines of Tobias' criticism of Ant-Man, my feeling with Nat's role in the film/the romance with Banner is that there's lots of in-universe explanation for plotting/characterization (some of them good), but from a Doyleist perspective, it still feels like the work is doing stereotypical things with the Smurfette.

Like for example, it sort of makes sense for Nat to be the one responsible for calming the Hulk as it shows a progression from her earlier terror of him/his distrust of her, but it still feels like someone at Marvel was saying to themselves, "of course, the Chick has to be the one responsible for southing the savage beast".

edited 11th Sep '15 10:38:18 AM by Hodor2

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#42925: Sep 11th 2015 at 10:36:28 AM

[up][up]And is still unable to open the door for whatever reason. It is like the damsel in distress which is bond to a stool and then unable to topple it over for some reason.

[up] Yeah, that is it...I give Ant-man a pass (kind of) because the movie was in development hell for so long and Wright is not exactly known for having any interest in female characters. It feels like Marvel took a script which marginalized a female and then wrote at the very last an apology for doing so into it. But I honestly expected better from Age of Ultron because Black Widow was so well written in The Avengers and The Winter Soldier. It feels like a huge step back.

Still don't think that Natasha calming the Hulk makes any sense at all. I don't see Steve allowing her to endanger herself in that way. He would most likely do it himself.

edited 11th Sep '15 10:40:24 AM by Swanpride


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