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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#42876: Sep 10th 2015 at 7:46:26 PM

[up]Sure, it might not have worked (though I don't entirely agree), but that wasn't what I was arguing. I wasn't arguing that the romance was well written, or even that it was averagely written(which is my opinion).

I was arguing that it "didn't come out of nowhere", because it didn't. It made as much sense as all the Avengers being together kicking HYDRA's ass at the beginning, despite that much not being introduced in any of the previous movies. It was just a thing that happened between movies. And since it was not a huge development on itself, I don't see why it was absolutely necessary that the introduction had to be on screen. That is not even close to be comparable to a main character death.

edited 10th Sep '15 7:46:42 PM by Heatth

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#42877: Sep 10th 2015 at 7:51:37 PM

Oh I fucked up I was replying to the post above you.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42878: Sep 10th 2015 at 7:51:59 PM

Yeah, it's not like they were suddenly in a relationship or dating. Hell, Natasha just starts flirting with him at the party and he gets all flustered.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#42879: Sep 10th 2015 at 8:57:23 PM

Imo, the alternate scene where Hill talks to Cap about the twins seguing into everyone finding out about Strucker is a lot better than the same series of scenes in the finished product. It says a lot more about the characters, even the ones who aren't actually present - while allowing a good midpoint between reflection and plot progression.

I guess that kind of thing is what Joss meant when he said he wished he "let the movie breathe."

edited 10th Sep '15 9:13:22 PM by KnownUnknown

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#42880: Sep 10th 2015 at 9:06:38 PM

I still think that's my favorite scene in the entire movie.

"Yeah, what kind of monsters would let a mad scientist experiment on them to protect their country?"

My various fanfics.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#42881: Sep 10th 2015 at 9:23:53 PM

I'm ambivalent toward the scene. It's a good line and showcases Cap's... Capness.

However, it's kind of weird to write him as comparing the work of an (implied to be Jewish) refugee from Nazi Germany to the work of a high ranking Hydra official.

I mean I think it just barely avoids being awful by the fact that unlike his comic counterpart, Strucker isn't a die hard Nazi and instead, his motivation seems to be For Science!

edited 10th Sep '15 9:25:49 PM by Hodor2

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#42883: Sep 10th 2015 at 9:25:45 PM

I think he wasn't comparing Erskine to Strucker as much as he was the twins to himself.

My various fanfics.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#42884: Sep 10th 2015 at 9:26:55 PM

His compassion there is resting with the twins, not with Strucker. He's more showing that he's open to believing that the twins have good motives for becoming enhanced, especially since Hill's info to him seems to say that they weren't affiliated with Hydra long before. The scientists' motives are an entirely different story.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#42885: Sep 10th 2015 at 9:27:01 PM

IIRC doesn't he use "German scientist" in the quote?

If so, that's what's weird- if the film's Strucker was the comic's Srucker, that would be a horrific and stupid comparison.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#42886: Sep 10th 2015 at 9:38:04 PM

[up] Yeah, you're right, he says German. At least according to wiki quotes.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42887: Sep 10th 2015 at 9:44:52 PM

And? Again, he wasn't comparing Erskine and Strucker, he was comparing himself and the Twins.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#42888: Sep 10th 2015 at 10:02:59 PM

Perhaps it's showing that he still knows that Not All Germans are Neo-Fascists, and that Strucker isn't evil because he's a German scientist, he's evil because he does evil things with science. I'll have to see the scene again, but he might be saying so in case he feels Hill is dismissing the case as "East Europeans be cray". That or he just wanted to make the comparison between the twins and him seem closer.

edited 10th Sep '15 10:03:16 PM by Tuckerscreator

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#42889: Sep 10th 2015 at 10:14:28 PM

You know, I've been thinking, if Hydra was that serious about distancing themselves from Nazism, they should have picked a new name.

Oh God! Natural light!
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#42891: Sep 10th 2015 at 10:36:36 PM

"Evaporate one raindrop, two more fall in its place! Hail Hydro!"

"Cut down one tree, two more grow in its place! Hail Kudzu!"

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#42892: Sep 10th 2015 at 11:15:01 PM

Ok, I just saw the whole cut scene and...

"Ultron complains that the world is not good enough it doesn't need the Avengers, but not bad enough they actually try to change it, and only if "something breaks" on a grand scale will the human race outgrow their selfishness and change things for the better."

Consider how much I complain about Ultron lack of sense in the other thread, this will help a lot, I supused having Ultron being goofy was more important...

"-Alternative version of Black Widow bringing out the Hulk by pretending to have toyed with Banner's emotions in order to put the Hulk on a leash and mocking him for thinking she could actually love him."

I think this could work better....you see I have my issue with Natasha-Banner: the way both chararter compare themselves.

Something both have in comon is they don see their power as something positive or enlighting: tony see his hability as a gift he can change the world and enjoy himself as long he dosent bother people, Cap see his power as a duty adn try to not become a weapon,Hawkeye as a Job and Thor as responsability with people he care so much.

But both Widow and Hulk where given their hability against their will, so both are trying to find a sense of porpurse, until this point everything is good.

The problem come in because Widow is not a monster like: she is a tool formto kill people, she still have autonomy of herself even when she dont know all of it, she cant have kids? she could adopt or hell, use some marvel werid bullshit to have it(it will not surprise me a this point) even she could in theory, retire herself and live elsewhere, but Banner cant stop being hulk, he cant barely live without fear to put another wakanda or hurting his friends

So the comparation become clunky that way, Natasha as black widow was made, Hulk is more of a accident and walking disaster wating to strike at first oportunity, so having her manipulating him show what she can do after all.

Or so that is my opinion

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42893: Sep 10th 2015 at 11:19:54 PM

Natasha revealing her inability to have children wasn't about her wanting children. It was about the fact that the Red Room removed everything from her that was irrelevant to being a weapon. She was a living weapon, much like the Hulk, no matter if she was bred to be one and he became one by accident.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#42894: Sep 10th 2015 at 11:39:13 PM

There are a number of reasons why this romance didn't work from the get go. In-universe it doesn't make any sense that it should be Natasha's job to calm down the Hulk. Last time we saw them, she was pretty much terrified of him and if he really looses his temper, he can kill her with one hit. It would make way more sense to send Thor, Steve or even Tony in...but wait, they are men. So let's use the only woman in the team and re-enact the beauty and the beast scenes from The Incredible Hulk because, you know, the audiences LOVED this particular movie so much, it just wants more of it.

You know, this movie in which they have established that Bruce can't have sex. Even if Black Widow were asexual on top of being sterile and therefor perfectly fine with a platonic relationship, Bruce is definitely NOT, the last thing he needs is someone around him which arouses him. But apparently there is no danger, which suggests that he is not physically attracted to Natasha at all (outside of the "romance" scenes he certainly doesn't show any interest in her - or the other way around), making the whole romance come off as "oh well, she wants me, so I take her" and as a result, portraying Natasha as second choice.

In addition the romance is really badly written and hits every tired cliché in the book.

On a more meta level: It IS really grating that in a set up which is designed to allow the audience a glimpse into the soul of the avengers, she is the only one whose story is build around the question if she can reproduce. Can you see Bucky coming back and explaining that he got castrated because it is more "efficient"?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#42895: Sep 10th 2015 at 11:47:58 PM

Pregnancy is more taxing on the female than the male for obvious reasons, and periods can be pretty awful. I can see how getting rid of that aspect would be practical. When it comes to the pure physical aspects or consequences of functioning sexuality, men getting an accidental boner is embarrassing but a lot less likely to compromise a mission.

But that very last bit brings up an interesting question that's been niggling at the back of my head. When was the last time a male character expressed regret that he had his ability to have children robbed from him (and not in the context of overall virility)?

edited 11th Sep '15 12:00:29 AM by AlleyOop

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42896: Sep 10th 2015 at 11:49:45 PM

In-universe it doesn't make any sense that it should be Natasha's job to calm down the Hulk. Last time we saw them, she was pretty much terrified of him and if he really looses his temper, he can kill her with one hit.

That's pretty much why I think she wanted to be the one - she overcame her fear from the last movie. She's the one that calms him down because she knows those techniques, she knows all about programming. Thor? Thor can't calm anything down and Tony probably doesn't have the time. But Natasha knows.

Even if Black Widow were asexual on top of being sterile and therefor perfectly fine with a platonic relationship, Bruce is definitely NOT, the last thing he needs is someone around him which arouses him.

The Edward Norton Bruce Banner was able to be around Liv Tyler for long periods without hulking out, it was only when they were making out that his blood pressure went upwards. So just being around Natasha wouldn't make any different. As proven by the movie itself, when the only time he hulked out was when Natasha pushed him down a hole.

But apparently there is no danger, which suggests that he is not physically attracted to Natasha at all (outside of the "romance" scenes he certainly doesn't show any interest in her - or the other way around), making the whole romance come off as "oh well, she wants me, so I take her" and as a result, portraying Natasha as second choice.

You know, sometimes I wonder how big these leaps of logic can get. "Why yes, I do like you, but we can't be together because I'm a monster." Sure, that totally translates to "YOU ARE MY SECOND CHOICE, I DON'T LIKE YOU AT ALL, WHY YOU ARE FLIRTING WITH ME."

It IS really grating that in a set up which is designed to allow the audience a glimpse into the soul of the avengers, she is the only one whose story is build around the question if she can reproduce.

Holy fuck, the question "Can she reproduce?" is never posed. That is never the question. She brings up her inability to have children in order to show Bruce the fact that the Red Room turned her into a weapon. She doesn't fucking want children! She calls Hawkeye's baby fat!

When was the last time a male character expressed regret that he had his ability to have children robbed from him (and not in the context of overall virility)?

Except she never expresses her regret about not being able to have children. Watch the scene again! She only says she can't have children in the context of her being turned into a weapon!

edited 11th Sep '15 12:04:51 AM by alliterator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#42897: Sep 10th 2015 at 11:57:27 PM

[up]She deliberately failed her test because she didn't want to "graduate". Everything in the movie suggests that she regrets not being able to have children of her own. It is especially evident in her interaction with Hawkeye's children. And when she suggests that she can't have this either, then I want to scream BS.

And the "she wants to tame her fear" explanation is perhaps a working fan theory, but this aspect is nowhere in the movie. Plus, Natasha isn't the first person who would come into my mind as being overly sensitive either, she is more the "tough love" kind of gal.

Another thing I notices: There are a number of scenes in which a male character carries a female one bridal style. Granted, all of them are somehow explained by the story...but why don't we ever see a male character being carried that way?

edited 10th Sep '15 11:58:08 PM by Swanpride

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42898: Sep 10th 2015 at 11:59:43 PM

She deliberately failed her test because she didn't want to "graduate".

Huh? Where the hell did you see that? She doesn't fail the test - she kills the man and graduates. That's why she was sterilized - it was the last thing they did to her before graduation.

Everything in the movie suggests that she regrets not being able to have children of her own. It is especially evident in her interaction with Hawkeye's children.

Really? This must be BYO Subtext, because I do not see that at all.

Plus, Natasha isn't the first person who would come into my mind as being overly sensitive either, she is more the "tough love" kind of gal.

I didn't say she was sensitive, I said that she knew programming techniques. Two different things.

Granted, all of them are somehow explained by the story...but why don't we ever see a male character being carried that way?

Because there are no female characters with super strength? Although it would be funny to see Black Widow trying to carry Thor in that way.

edited 11th Sep '15 12:04:35 AM by alliterator

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#42899: Sep 11th 2015 at 12:02:53 AM

Yeah I didn't take her fondness of the Bartons as womb envy or anything, quite the opposite. I took it to mean she doesn't feel any particular bitterness at children or her inability to have them in and of itself, so much as the circumstances of it (lack of agency and soforth). That said the scene was poorly written and framed in general so it can seem that way.

edited 11th Sep '15 12:03:49 AM by AlleyOop

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42900: Sep 11th 2015 at 12:05:58 AM

Also, I don't actually remember any scenes where a male character carries a female character bridal style. No, wait, there was Quicksilver carrying Scarlet Witch when he ran really fast...and that's all I can remember.

So who were those other characters that did that?


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