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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42851: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:03:27 PM

Yeah, that sounds...not good.

Also, the scene sounds like she was lying to him about not falling for him.

edited 10th Sep '15 4:06:57 PM by alliterator

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#42852: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:05:55 PM

[up][up]No, nobody knows that. All anybody knows is that that is an opinion held by some people. There are other people who think it was just fine, suitably justified, and that people complaining about it are basically complaining about something that ultimately lead nowhere, which was entirely the point.

edited 10th Sep '15 4:07:27 PM by Khfan429

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#42853: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:07:39 PM

Yeah, the scene was that she was going to make up a story about how it was all just a lie (yo dawg I heard you like lies) to get an emotional rage out of him, triggering a Hulk-out.

Pushing him off the cliff while both parties know he'll be unharmed and reflexively Hulk out is, somewhat ironically, a much safer and kinder way of bringing out the Hulk. It's still a betrayal in the sense that she's dragging him into combat instead of running away with him like they had discussed, but it's at least a nicer way of going about it.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#42854: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:08:47 PM

[up][up][up][up]Ah. So this is what this is all about. You hatin' on Bruce x Natasha. It really wasn't that cloying at all. Sure it wasn't that interesting either, but it honestly kind of made sense.

[nja]

edited 10th Sep '15 4:09:29 PM by nervmeister

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42855: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:08:49 PM

The romance between Widow and Banner came out of nowhere (and was badly done), and you know it.

It didn't come out of nowhere - Bruce and Natasha actually had a fair amount of scenes together in the first Avengers. She recruited him, confronted the Hulk even though she was terrified of him, and then when Bruce came back, they had that moment of bonding.

So, no, it didn't come out of nowhere.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#42856: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:10:38 PM

I don't like the romance. I think it's shoehorned in, and there's few things I dislike more in my action flicks than the obligatory Romantic Plot Tumor.

But what you're suggesting is to basically derail Black Widow into a complete and utter asshole. It's two completely unrelated issues.

edited 10th Sep '15 4:11:23 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#42857: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:19:49 PM

I liked Bruce/Natasha as a plot, but I don't like what it does to the rest of the movie—take one of the film's three female characters and put her in a romance. In a world where The Avengers was like 75% female I would've liked it better, but then, I would like most things better in that world.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#42858: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:21:28 PM

I felt it kind of fumbled through the movie and that they didn't have much chemistry.

It also, in hindsight, felt like Joss set it up because he needed a relationship to [BAD END]

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#42859: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:23:32 PM

Bruce and Natasha felt like it needed, like, a whole other movie's worth of time to develop properly to me. It felt really rushed and, yes, like it came out of nowhere.

But I don't think the best solution is to turn Natasha into an "evil traitorous wench." Her name is Black Widow, but it doesn't have to be literal.

edited 10th Sep '15 4:24:26 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#42860: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:26:20 PM

The only thing I appreciate about it is that it ended badly. Not only because we won't have to worry about it in the future, but because it does actually add some decent drama to the end of their character arcs.

I still don't like it though. It's just such a stupid choice of characters with no chemistry, and the plot screeching to a halt to show them awkwardly flirting or other characters commenting on how great they are together. I'd have much prefered different character arcs for them.

Avengers 1 and Winter Soldier didn't have any romance plot in them and they're two of the most well-regarded films in the MCU. Between Ultron and Ant-Man you'd think they'd take the hint that they shouldn't feel obligated to throw one in.

edited 10th Sep '15 4:29:17 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
HextarVigar That guy from The Big House Since: Feb, 2015
That guy
#42861: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:46:08 PM

I gleefully await the moment where Banner Hulks out while the two are making out and Natasha gets turned into a bottle-rocket.

Your momma's so dumb she thinks oral sex means talking dirty.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#42862: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:49:35 PM

You're real pleasant, aren't you?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#42863: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:50:27 PM

That's why I don't talk to him.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#42864: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:51:13 PM

I'm sorry, but I chuckled.

I'm a bad person, I'll see myself out.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#42865: Sep 10th 2015 at 4:52:46 PM

I'm not... entirely certain that's how making out works to begin with.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#42866: Sep 10th 2015 at 5:09:45 PM

I'm 90% positive that its not

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#42867: Sep 10th 2015 at 5:12:35 PM

"You're real pleasant, aren't you?" was just the perfect mix of sarcasm and understatement to make me chuckle.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#42868: Sep 10th 2015 at 6:47:39 PM

That's interesting about cutting/changing Iron Man and Cap being antagonistic the whole film.

I'm not sure if it would have worked better, but it's interesting to know that because as it is, it's sort of like we got a couple of scenes where Cap is really angry at Tony and I guess it sort of contributes to my thinking Whedon is using Tony as a mouthpiece and Cap as a straw man because of the fact we don't see reciprocal behavior.

Think I agree with the decision with Nat. I thought the pushing scene was effective in showing that as much as Nat can care for people and likes the idea of being a hero, she's always going to default to pragmatic operative.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#42869: Sep 10th 2015 at 6:49:40 PM

Oh please. The romance between Widow and Banner came out of nowhere (and was badly done), and you know it.

Yes it came "out of nowhere", because we absolutely know everything these two have been doing for, like, over an year.

You know, I actually like that the movie don't pretend the characters stayed exactly like we last left them. There is time skips between the movies.

edited 10th Sep '15 6:50:10 PM by Heatth

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#42870: Sep 10th 2015 at 6:57:30 PM

It doesn't make it any less jarring. Imagine if the movie opened with, I dunno, Steve having died a year ago but everyone has basically moved on by the time we catch up with them.

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#42871: Sep 10th 2015 at 7:13:39 PM

Uhummm... In avengers when Bruce and Natasha first met he messed around with a baby crib, saying we can't always have what we want. Is it ironic that small detail somehow became a subplot for age of ultron? Hulk and black widow do not have the benefit of their own movies per year like everyone else so whatever happens may not be easily foreshadowed. An Avenger movie give us very small glimpse of so and so's next arc. Between films things happen and they wont always get brought up in someone else's solo. Do we need to know when Natasha and Bruce were romanticly involved prior to age of ultron or was Miss Hawkeye's line about how Nat grew a crush on the least expecting person natural enough to accept? It's not a matter of how and when it happened but why and who it happened to. Whedon forever said the Avengers are a family and now Russo Bros follows him. Like in our reality love just happens among those close to you. If there is a connection and anything can meet the requirements. Sure going further into why would help but I got the same point while it was still in smaller doses. Now if they had their own movie to share together in the Jessica Jones x Luke cage sense then there would be more than enough time to explore romance

edited 10th Sep '15 7:39:57 PM by xbimpy

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#42872: Sep 10th 2015 at 7:13:41 PM

Genuinely curious, considering where the relationship ultimately (didn't) go, would it have been better if the movie had taken more time to set up an ultimately doomed pairing?

All things considered, I have a hard time believing giving more screen time to the relationship would have made it any better. Instead it'd just fan the complaints that it took up too much time.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#42873: Sep 10th 2015 at 7:18:50 PM

[up][up][up]Uh, yeah, I don't consider that remotely comparable. Really, why is that jarring that two characters were flirting with each other? It is not like the story opened with their marriage.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#42874: Sep 10th 2015 at 7:24:51 PM

I'm not sure if it would have worked better, but it's interesting to know that because as it is, it's sort of like we got a couple of scenes where Cap is really angry at Tony and I guess it sort of contributes to my thinking Whedon is using Tony as a mouthpiece and Cap as a straw man because of the fact we don't see reciprocal behavior.

I didn't see that at all. In fact, I saw what that while both had made good points, that Tony was too impulsive, too willing to do things by himself rather than tell others. Cap, on the other hand, had a lot more trust on everyone else. It was Cap that had sympathy for the Twins, that immediately trusted them to do the right thing.

edited 10th Sep '15 7:25:37 PM by alliterator

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#42875: Sep 10th 2015 at 7:42:07 PM

[up][up][up]Perhaps, but ultimately it didn't work because if the intention was to tug at the heartstrings by showing the romance sputtering and ending tragically, it failed because there wasn't enough build-up to warrant caring about it.

I find it similar to the people who complained about Quicksilver being the "big" Avengers death that was teased, because ultimately, we didn't know him well enough for it to truly have impact.

edited 10th Sep '15 7:51:52 PM by comicwriter


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