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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#41476: Aug 21st 2015 at 12:59:49 PM

Those criticisms generally come back to the problem that the actual heroes of the MCU were not terribly diverse until very recently.

It's a non-issue with Cage though. I don't think having a black person be the Big Bad is a problem when the hero himself is another black person. Were she the only black person in the show, that'd be another issue.

edited 21st Aug '15 1:00:19 PM by comicwriter

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#41477: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:03:06 PM

Sinister bilingualism

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#41478: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:26:52 PM

In fairness to Daredevil it was the foreign villains that were stereotypes, not specifically the non-white ones. Let's face it, the Russians were pretty stereotypical Russians.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#41479: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:31:25 PM

[up]And really just the villains. None of the non-white protagonists were strong stereotypes.

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#41481: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:44:40 PM

[up] Not really? How was Mrs. Cardenas a stereotype??? Because she speaks Spanish? Like, most Latino/Hispanic folks prefer to talk to in their native language.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#41482: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:45:46 PM

All the villains were stereotypes. It is not like the white corrupt banker guy isn't a stereotype, too.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#41483: Aug 21st 2015 at 1:53:31 PM

You could argue Matt Murdock himself is a stereotype. It's an Fighting Irish (a boxer, even) who's also fervently Catholic because of course he is and is dressed like a demons because CATHOLICISM. And he has a guilt complex because of course he has.

edited 21st Aug '15 1:55:00 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#41484: Aug 21st 2015 at 2:04:15 PM

While I'm glad we're finally getting both a black and a female Big Bad, the big issue with Luke Cage is that he's a blaxploitation throwback so most of his villains are character types that have since been so overused in comics for black heroes that they come off as cliche at best and stereotypical at worst.

Black Mariah, for example, is a supervillain drug dealer and gangleader in the comics. Black heroes always get supervillain drug dealers, thugs and gangbangers as their major antagonists, so I'm not overly excited if that's the case.

edited 21st Aug '15 2:07:33 PM by KnownUnknown

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#41485: Aug 21st 2015 at 2:07:10 PM

madame gao isnt a walking sterotype. she speaks all languages because she isnt exactly "human". being from one of the Capital Cities implies she is a descendant or an original inhabit from it. Iron Fist lore did what Marvel failed to do with Dr. Strange's Ancient One. if you make up asian magical stuff it better not be offensive. madame gao is just following the necessities for Iron Fist lore

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#41486: Aug 21st 2015 at 2:09:13 PM

[up][up] The executive producer of Luke Cage, however, is Cheo Hodari Coker, who was a writer on Southland, so it seems that he was a pretty good choice to revamp and redo a bunch of old Luke Cage villains and make them, you know, not racist.

[up]If you didn't know about the Immortal Cities, however, you'd just think Gao was a stereotypical mystical Asian lady. Saying "because of comic books" doesn't make it not racist.

edited 21st Aug '15 2:10:20 PM by alliterator

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#41487: Aug 21st 2015 at 2:13:26 PM

[up][up] [up]Yes Luke Cage's rouges have always been mainly African American sterotypes and archtypes. Look at the way Black Maria is drawn and if you say that's okay then something is wrong with you.

Hell it's not even that. It's the way america was prestend in comics pre-90s. one race vs another vs inner city crime. theres even a villian named White Man who torments underprivileged people.

these are all obvious big huge problems that are easy to correct in live action... lol. you really think Marvel Studios is dumb enough to adapt Crazy Legs directly?

edited 21st Aug '15 2:17:02 PM by xbimpy

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#41488: Aug 21st 2015 at 2:15:49 PM

[up] Well, one of his villains was Doctor Doom, who stiffed him on a bill, forcing Cage to say his immortal line, "Where's my money, honey?"

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#41489: Aug 21st 2015 at 2:18:28 PM

When Dr. Doom went racist that was not okay. also mainstream villains justified by racism rarely ever works as superhero nation pointed out.

edited 21st Aug '15 2:18:48 PM by xbimpy

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#41490: Aug 21st 2015 at 2:40:19 PM

except the iron fist lore is essential to whatever happens to madame gao. that lore would have to be a big no no in live action if she wasnt a character onto herself rather than serving and referencing only negative asian stereotypes.

someone said

"Obviously, both Nobu and Gao represent pretty long-standing Orientalist/Yellow Peril tropes and stereotypes. As my friend Miyoko Conley exclaimed to me over social media, Gao is “literally a Dragon Lady,” a ruthless science fictional Chinese lady with a propensity for vast threatening power. Gao’s Chinese drug workers, who voluntarily blinded themselves in service to her, reflect the longstanding orientalist notion that Asians, while competent, have no sense of independent thought and blindly (in this case, literally) follow authority, like a mindless horde!"

and yes that would be the case for Gao if the Iron Fist lore did not exist. the who, what, where, why, when, and how behind her life, the wants and needs that are determined by social milieu, and hidden depths have yet to be seen because she is part of a much larger story that is currently out of Matt Murdock's league. once again if you think Mortal Kombat shouldnt be made anymore because the stories are too racist then the same can be said to when she pops up again in story not so different. Ironfist is Marvel's Wuxia. This would be mundane fantastic Wuxia. i dont see what's so bad about that.

some people think "Nobu and Gao come only in one flavor: inscrutable mysterious menace.", yet they are obviously foreshadowing a whole other group of people with their own traditions, wants, and needs. If all the Hand is like Nobu would that be a problem? I thought he did Japanese spirit well, meanwhile Gao wasn't exactly the Batman stoic some people claim, therefore ignoring the stereotype Asians are emotionless like American Indians. however, for Nobu the only emotion he shows is a ninja's heart. what is a ninja going to do? even in anime manga and jrpgs such archtypes made by Japanese artist don't turn out drastically different. there's plenty of cold stern ninjas in Naruto.

if anything Nobu was more of a walking sterotype, being just another ninja EXCEPT it did Kakan of Japanese spirit some justice more so than all adaptions of League of Assassins. Gao had enough to offer that she wasnt just there for setting up continuity or being bland. she stood out to me because of who she was instead of the ethnicity behind her. I do not care about the fact she is asian. I care about the culture behind her that justifies what she was doing in Hell's Kitchen.

now if all this foreshadowing turned out to be just a generic area in East Asia like Agents of SHIE Ld's After Life or the people there were no different from anyone in China. if Gao doesn't gain an inch of change or introduce hidden depths then that can be a problem if Iron Fist is very character driven with her being important.

overall I dont believe Drew Goddard created a racist caricature. so far she seems like a powerful female bending others to her will because of intelligence, competence, charisma, strength. I liked how the connections with wherever she came from wasn't even used for reinforcements unless everyone working for her were indeed decedents

edited 21st Aug '15 3:34:09 PM by xbimpy

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#41491: Aug 21st 2015 at 2:43:41 PM

except the iron fist lore is essential to whatever happens to madame gao.

It doesn't matter if the Iron Fist lore is "essential" or not if it's still racist. You can say "But it comes from the comics!" all you want, but, again, it's still a racist stereotype.

and yes that would be the case for Gao if the Iron Fist lore did not exist. the who, what, where, why, when, and how behind her life, the wants and needs that are determined by social milieu have yet to be seen because she is part of a much larger story that is currently out of Matt Murdock's league.

Nope, you can't go "her backstory isn't known, therefore she's not racist." If the writers don't include her backstory and only show her as a racist stereotype, then she's a racist stereotype. You can't point to a completely different medium to explain a backstory and expect it to suddenly not be racist.

edited 21st Aug '15 2:44:48 PM by alliterator

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#41492: Aug 21st 2015 at 5:35:19 PM

Cool Freeze-Frame Bonus for Klaue I hadn't caught before.

And some more Civil War set pics, including a modified Ant-Man costume.[1][2][3]

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#41494: Aug 21st 2015 at 5:56:29 PM

Yes they're a group of Avengers villains made up of the smartest bad guys in the Marvel Universe.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#41495: Aug 21st 2015 at 6:05:02 PM

[up][up][up] Ah, so T'Chaka is already dead?

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#41496: Aug 21st 2015 at 6:06:20 PM

[up] T'chaka is apparently still allive and well as of Civil War.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#41497: Aug 21st 2015 at 6:07:18 PM

That's... interesting. And that screenshot is from Age of Ultron?

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#41498: Aug 21st 2015 at 6:07:36 PM

[up]Klaue is apparently not very good at his job.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#41499: Aug 21st 2015 at 6:07:56 PM

And his employers aren't very good at their jobs either, if they actually "paid him for the kill" without verifying whether the target was still alive.

edited 21st Aug '15 6:09:58 PM by KnownUnknown

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities

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