Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules
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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Vs Capcom.
Then they all come together to fight Bison, who has become a herald of Galactus and knows the Anti-Life Equation.
edited 20th Aug '15 7:16:16 PM by KnownUnknown
...and Knuckles.
Dang it, that extra line ruins my joke!
edited 20th Aug '15 7:16:47 PM by edvedd
Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau ProjectAnd then in 2029 it's Knuckles and Knuckles.
I like the official Sonic the Hedgehog Twitter.
Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau ProjectThe fact that Ant-Man's HYDRA Agent worked for general HYDRA and not Strucker's specific cell is kind of the point, actually. At least, what with what was originally being talked about.
We don't know what cell Ant-Man's Hydra member was working for, which is why it's perfectly logical he would still be around after Strucker's cell was gotten rid of.
(Also, why do you always refer to Hydra in all-caps? It isn't an acronym.)
edited 20th Aug '15 8:34:11 PM by alliterator
In-universe they always refer to themselves in all caps, and they're also always referred to as such.
Really? I don't think I've ever seen them referred to in all-caps in-universe.
I mean, they call themselves Hydra because of the mythological Hydra
. I don't know why they would put that in all-caps.
edited 20th Aug '15 8:43:29 PM by alliterator
It's not exactly logical, if Strucker's cell was ganked by the Avengers and AOS establishes that the rest of HYDRA's cells wiped each other out, with Ward creating a ragtag reconstruction at the end of the second season? It's more of an assumption that there's a reason out there, an assumption which is basically dumped in AOS' lap to follow up on or not. That's the point - not whether they can actually explain or reconcile it, or how (as, again, the issue is so minor that doing so would be easy).
To clarify, since I've noticed the conversation going in this direction, the topic here isn't going on about outright contradiction (which is why I put in quotes last time), as if AOS somehow has a continuity that's incompatible with the rest of the MCU, or suffering from a plot hole, or anything extreme simply because Ant-Man decided to go forward with something minor but dissonant. Once again, it's Broad Strokes - the films aren't obligated to play the show's developments straight if they don't need to.
Or basically, that the films have precedent. Simply put, if AOS wanted to do an arc that culminated in the definitive triumph over HYDRA, that's fine, but if Ant-Man wants HYDRA to still have power, they still have power. It falls on the AOS crew to reconcile that with what they've already done if they so desire, not the films - which makes sense, since doing so in the films would require the viewer to watch to show to understand why they're doing so.
As for HYDRA being uppercase, it's odd. As far as I can tell looking it up online, it just kind of is capitalized sometimes both in the comics (even taking into account that most things in comics are lettered in all caps) and out if them, but there's not real reason for it, nor is it a consistent thing.
Someone might've taken the caps thing from an appearance like that and run with it.
edited 20th Aug '15 10:06:14 PM by KnownUnknown
It's not exactly logical, if Strucker's cell was ganked by the Avengers and AOS establishes that the rest of HYDRA's cells wiped each other out, with Ward creating a ragtag reconstruction at the end of the second season?
AOS didn't establish that the rest of Hydra's cells wiped each other out, they established that the Hydra leadership was wiped out.
Simply put, if AOS wanted to do an arc that culminated in the definitive triumph over HYDRA, that's fine, but if Ant-Man wants HYDRA to still have power, they still have power. It falls on the AOS crew to reconcile that with what they've already done if they so desire, not the films - which makes sense, since doing so in the films would require the viewer to watch to show to understand why they're doing so.
This is true, but again, it doesn't mean that the show has a lesser continuity. You compared it to the Star Wars Expanded Universe, which explicitely was a lesser continuity and was then completely dumped by Disney when they took over. That's not going to happen with Agents of SHIELD or Daredevil - whatever happened in AOS happened, even if it's never referred to in the movies.
The way I see it is that the television shows and movies are like two comic books in the same universe. They don't have to reference each other, they have the potential to contradict each other, but they still take place in the same universe.
edited 20th Aug '15 11:20:45 PM by alliterator
Lot's of themes here...let's tackle them.
1. I knew that the Mockingbird show was not dead yet, but I am glad that they waited a little bit with it. No sense in rushing it. Hopefully they do it Mr. and Mrs. Smith style. I want Bobbi and Hunter in a slightly dysfunctional but still working relationship while going on missions!
2. Sure, there are different level of continuity in the MCU. For example, the one-shots and tie-in comics are only as long continuity until they are contradicted. But the TV shows and movies are roughly on the same level. Sure, Ao S is written around the movies and not other way around, but the pieces are nevertheless created to fit together as well as possible.
3. I don't think that Hydra will ever be completely gone. The Avengers might have believed that they had the last puzzle piece with Strucker, but in The Winter Soldier it was established that he was basically working on his own and only using those other organisations. Hydra, in the end of the day, is a stand-in for Nazis, for an ideology which exists until this day in slightly altered forms. Though if Ao S now has the permission to turn Ward into a leader, it is a sign that the movies want to keep the Hydra threat low-key for a while.
I said the old Star Wars continuity was the most famous example of levels of continuity, when defining the concept. I did not say that Marvel's levels of continuity were the same as Star Wars' levels of continuity - the two uses of the concept are distinct: Marvel's are far less rigid and more accommodating to everything in the mythos, hence Broad Strokes.
The Star Wars continuity had many levels, including one or two "official" levels and several "unofficial" ones, which was poorly maintained and was more or less (despite what people say about the old EU) pretending that any level but the movies had any real weight in the universe as a whole. It's the most evident example of that concept in media, but it's not the same as every other use of that concept in media.
I did compare Agents of SHIELD and the Netflix shows to tie-in comics, however, and I stand by it - actually and totally canon, except where inconvenient.
edited 20th Aug '15 11:30:59 PM by KnownUnknown
The Star Wars continuity had many levels, including one or two "official" levels and several "unofficial" ones, which was poorly maintained and was more or less (despite what people say about the old EU) pretending that any level but the movies had any weight in the whole system. It's the most evident example of that concept in media, but it's not the same as every other use of that concept.
Except, again, Star Wars made that explicit and official. There is no such thing for the Marvel Cinematic Universe. In fact, as I stated before, Jeph Loeb has said that everything takes place within the same universe. There are no "levels of continuity" for the live-action stuff.
I did compare it Agents of SHIELD and the Netflix shows to tie-in comics, however, and I stand by it - totally canon, unless contradictory.
Except, again, nothing has been contradicted, so you have no basis for this. There is literally nothing you can point to and say, "Here, this piece of live action is no longer canon because of something."
edited 20th Aug '15 11:33:02 PM by alliterator
It's more of a blanket statement, which would be why I immediately edited it to "canon, except where inconvenient."
Because, again, their uses of the concept are different. Did you miss the part where I said that just because Star Wars is the most famous example of it, that doesn't mean all uses of it in media are exactly the same as how they do it? I was just using Star Wars as an example. It was definitely there before I edited the post.
Why exactly would I do that? This isn't the first time you've implied that people are saying AOS is non-canon or something, but you're the only one bringing it up like that. Even if I did use the term contradictory once or twice, which you've been taking at its most extreme despite the context, I've been adamant from the beginning that the actual moment is just minor but obvious dissonance.
The best response to that is something I've already posted.
edited 20th Aug '15 11:54:14 PM by KnownUnknown
As someone who spend ages on figuring out a time-line for the MCU I can safely say that there are no contradictions between the shows and the movies whatsoever at this point. There are some minor points in which the movies contradict each other, especially in the early stages, but nothing major there either. Agent Carter seems to have replaced the Agent carter one-shot and The Winter Soldier contradicts one of the tie-in comics in which Steve became an orphan at a young age, but that's it.
I was just using Star Wars as an example. It was definitely there before I edited the post.
Okay, but you can't use Star Wars as an example if Star Wars isn't an example. Star Wars had levels of continuity. The MCU, in my opinion, doesn't.
Why exactly would I do that? This isn't the first time you've implied that people are saying AOS is non-canon or something, but you're the only one bringing it up like that.
I'm implying that because people have stated that AOS wasn't canon - they use the fact that the movies don't refer to it as "proof" that AOS isn't canon, too. And the more you talk about "levels of continuity," the more you seem like you're looking for a way to show that AOS isn't canon either. That's the only reason to say that AOS is on a "lower level" of continuity. Otherwise, this is all just pedantry.
There are some minor points in which the movies contradict each other
Yeah, there's a question: what if the movies contradict one another? Since they are on the same "level," in your opinion, which one is canon and which isn't? The latest one?
See, that's what I'm taking about: this is all just pedantry. And meaningless, since at this moment, there aren't any contradictions anyway.
edited 21st Aug '15 12:04:39 AM by alliterator
Okay, but you can't use Star Wars as an example if Star Wars isn't an example. Star Wars had levels of continuity. The MCU, in my opinion, doesn't.
Why exactly would I do that? This isn't the first time you've implied that people are saying AOS is non-canon or something, but you're the only one bringing it up like that.
I'm implying that because people have stated that AOS wasn't canon - they use the fact that the movies don't refer to it as "proof" that AOS isn't canon, too. And the more you talk about "levels of continuity," the more you seem like you're looking for a way to show that AOS isn't canon either. That's the only reason to say that AOS is on a "lower level" of continuity. Otherwise, this is all just pedantry.
First, a correction: you seem to be defining the concept of levels of continuity as something that's inherently a lot more rigid and damning than it actually is.
If something is in a lower level of continuity, it is, by definition, in continuity. It's right there in the name. The highers levels just have more weight. Star Wars put its lower levels out of continuity/canon and so it, officially, does not have levels of continuity any more. It's why tie-in comics are just as good an example as Star Wars, despite not all tie-in comics having the same weight in comparison to their source.
Secondly, on the actual conversation itself: I can't think of a single person in this conversation who said that AOS isn't canon because the movies haven't brought it up, but I do know that if you're going to conflate this conversation with completely different ones and start ignoring the actual content of my posts to say stuff like "I think you're just saying this because you don't like this show and don't want it to be canon," in contrast to what's actually being reiterated to you, I'm thinking it's about time for this conversation to be over. Otherwise, we're just going to go around in circles, derailing the thread further.
If it's your opinion that Marvel doesn't deal with the shows and movies continuity differently, that's fine. Agree to disgree.
edited 21st Aug '15 12:33:34 AM by KnownUnknown

edited 20th Aug '15 7:12:56 PM by LordVatek
This song needs more love.