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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#40501: Aug 9th 2015 at 1:19:04 AM

I really appreciate that The Winter Soldier included female and nonwhite members so prominently among HYDRA's ranks during the latter montages. It makes the point that the kind of evil HYDRA represents can and has come from any society or subgroup within society, and that people shouldn't be apathetic or fall into the mindset of "ha! look at those nutty white/patriarchal/patriarchal/European/other people with their broken white/patriarchal/European/other society problems, good thing it'll never happen to us!" or "that's why we should be in charge instead! We'll never make the same mistakes as those people" And that is really scary. Even moreso considering I'm from the US and what HYDRA is doing is extremely similar to our foreign policy over the last 50 or so years.

A common criticism of the movie is that the moral conflict is too simple because it equates the villains with a Nazi organization, but I don't entirely agree. Perhaps the Nazi baggage covers the argument in a layer of straw, and it's what causes people to think the above, not but Neo-HYDRA clearly aren't actual Nazis anymore. And Fury of all people, whom proper Nazis would despise, is this close to being a supporter of HYDRA's ideology. He's got a sympathetic reason for thinking the way he does, but even after the reveal he still wanted Project Insight salvaged and mostly backs off because Even Grey Has Standards.

edited 9th Aug '15 1:46:24 AM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40502: Aug 9th 2015 at 1:28:38 AM

Btw: I don't get the discussion surrounding Spider-man's costume. It's a classic, it is nearly impossible to mess up, and there is really not much room to change it.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40503: Aug 9th 2015 at 1:36:38 AM

[up][up]Yeah, I agree. I pointed this out beforehand concerning the Marvel villains, but most of them are negative versions of the hero, what the hero could be if he looses his path. In The Winter Soldier, though, Alexander Pierce is no the negative version of Steve. If there is a counterpart to him, it's the Winter Soldier who doubles as negative version of Black Widow, showing what they could be if Steve has fallen in the hands of the enemy or Natasha never escaped The Red Room. Alexander Pierces motivation is identical than Fury's though, they both want peace and their methods are nearly identical, too. The difference is that Pierce already made this last step which Fury hasn't take yet. I got the impression that the sole reason he tells Steve of Project insight is because he wants to double-check if his actions are morally sound by asking the most moral guy on earth. But Steve clearly denies that this is the right way to go.

A conflict which comes up again in "Age Of Ultron" when Tony uses Pierce reasoning as explanation why he created Ultron and Steve reacts by telling him that everytime someone wants to end a war before it starts, innocent people die. Which is why it makes so much sense that Fury talks to Tony in the barn. Because Tony basically made the same mistake Fury did, with the difference that Fury did stop in the last minute, but Tony didn't.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40504: Aug 9th 2015 at 2:14:15 AM

"You seem to really like Iron Man: Armored Adventures. I get it, really. But I've never seen it and I don't really want to see it. In fact, I'd guess not many people have seen it at all. So using it as some sort of "proof" that the Mandarin can be done isn't really proof at all — since the show was, you know, cancelled and barely known at all right now."

Yes I liked it, and I don't get your point. For starter I didn't ask you to watch it. And second: basically you are saying that doesn't qualify as a proof because the show is barely known? I fail to see the relation between these two things.

"Yes, the writers had to rewrite his entire character to make him less racist. Then they could use him. And then they still barely used him. I remember Matt Fraction using him in a storyline called "The Future" (I think) and I remember Kieron Gillen writing a storyline called "Rings of the Mandarin" which didn't even have the Mandarin in it, just his rings."

Again, where have I said I was against rewriting? And just because you only remember him in specific arcs doesn't mean he hasn't been used in more. That seems ridiculously narrow-minded from you.

Oh, whatever. Point is, I know they probably won't adapt the Mandarin now, I am not stupid. What I am saying is, I think they COULD have done it properly and they didn't. And I express my disappointment about it because I am well-aware it's too late now. You guys think the character couldn't be adapted properly and I respectfully disagree. You might think the character was shitty to the core, but to me it's just a case of They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character.

Moving on.

"I don't get the discussion surrounding Spider-man's costume. It's a classic, it is nearly impossible to mess up, and there is really not much room to change it."

Yeah, I don't really get it either. But whatever.

edited 9th Aug '15 3:15:04 AM by Theokal3

LDragon2 Since: Dec, 2011
#40505: Aug 9th 2015 at 2:40:48 AM

I will say this. Winter Soldier is probably one of the best examples of how to do.a more serious and grounded superhero film, while still keeping the fantastical elements. Rather than just go pure dark and edgy, with washed out color palettes and a joyless atmosphere, the film manages to keep an idealistic feeling throughout the film, but doesn't shy away from the more serious aspects of the story.

Really, it is probably one of the most mature comic book movies out there, because it doesn't resort to violence and overly serious presentation, but balances light-heartedness with grit.

edited 9th Aug '15 2:41:03 AM by LDragon2

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40506: Aug 9th 2015 at 2:48:12 AM

[up]True. I am honestly surprised some people dislike it.

LDragon2 Since: Dec, 2011
#40507: Aug 9th 2015 at 2:56:15 AM

[up] Blame Hype Backlash and a perceived lack of common sense in the film (like how can Batroc, a normal human, fight on even ground with Cap, why doesn't Cap just call The Avengers, and stuff happening for no reason other than the plot says so, or at least, that's what the detractors say). Even so, it still holds up thanks to the superb execution and writing. Not to mention the tone being pretty much spot on.

Anyways, onto another note, are you guys more excited for Captain America Civil War or Doctor Strange next year. For me, it's the former, since the Russo Siblings proved that they are expert filmmakers, and I look forward to seeing their next film.

Doctor Strange sounds interesting, but I can't shake the feeling that it could be Marvel's first truly bad film, mainly because of the writers chosen for the film. Seriously, of all the people to pick, they chose Thomas Dean Donnelly and Joshua Oppenheimer, who have done nothing but write horrible flops like Dylan Dog Dead Of Night. And they also had Jon Sphaits rewrite it, who penned the horribly received film The Darkest Hour.

Who on Earth thought it would be a good idea to let these guys write the film?

edited 9th Aug '15 2:58:17 AM by LDragon2

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40508: Aug 9th 2015 at 2:59:08 AM

[up][up]I am not. Not just because tastes differ, but there are people who would rather bite their tongue than to admit that a Superhero movie is actually that good. You know, some people say The Dark Knight is the best Superhero movie of all time, other says it's The Avengers, but I think the honour belongs to The Winter Soldier.

edited 9th Aug '15 2:59:26 AM by Swanpride

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40509: Aug 9th 2015 at 3:08:04 AM

Okay...my expectations for Dr. Strange just sunk considerably. I mean, perhaps the script for "The Passengers" is really amazing, but those other two dudes...I sometimes wonder how those people even get work in the movie industry.

Well, my answer would have been Civil war either way. The team which is responsible for the Captain America Franchise has yet to disappoint me, so I have really high expectations. Concerning Dr. Strange...well, I am more curious about it. I am not really into horror movies, but I really want to see them going crazy with the design.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40510: Aug 9th 2015 at 3:12:11 AM

[up][up][up]Fair enough.

As for these two movies... I admit I am more curious toward Dr Strange, but on the other hand I look forward Civil War to see MCU Spider-Man and Black Panther. Though I am worried about how they will handle the ending. As for the writers of Dr Strange... well to be fair, they DID wrote about supernatural stuff before^^

[up][up]Fair enough, but still, I found someone who made an argument that it sucked and was painfully overevaluated. His complained included bringing back HYDRA because he felt it was a silly portrayal of the nazi (I already mentionned that sooner) and Captain America being a bland boy scout main character who nobody cares about. Please take note that I don't agree with him.

edited 9th Aug '15 3:14:13 AM by Theokal3

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#40511: Aug 9th 2015 at 3:14:43 AM

Civil War. It's got all the characters I like, the actors I like, the writers I like, the directors I like, and the setting I like. Doctor Strange doesn't for the most part. The comics are great mostly because of the art and trippy visuals and that seems to the be movie's selling point too, but Scenery Porn isn't my top priority when I watch movies.

edited 9th Aug '15 3:17:38 AM by AlleyOop

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#40512: Aug 9th 2015 at 3:17:54 AM

[up][up]“Captain America is only interesting if he’s a prick" - http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/captain-america-winter-soldier-prick.html. The notion that idealistic tropes are utterly boring needs to end.

edited 9th Aug '15 3:18:15 AM by xbimpy

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40513: Aug 9th 2015 at 3:30:38 AM

I want the boring nice guy as the hero back. I really do. You don't necessarily need to make a movie in which the main character acts like an a-hole or has a big character arc. You can just as well make one in which the main character is morally sound and which is more about how his morals contrast with other people.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40514: Aug 9th 2015 at 3:43:52 AM

[up][up]Completely agreed. The guy I told you about basically said the "boy scout" archetype had not aged well and was boring. I personally disagree; in fact, if anything, my interest for characters like Cap and Superman has come back these last years. A good writer can actually make an idealistic character look not boring, it's all a matter of how you use them.

Truth is, the fact they are so idealistic actually can make them fascinating in a darker, more cynical universe. Because you come to be fascinated by how, no matter how much crap is going on around them, they still manage to keep their idealism and be faithful to it. Spider-Man is great because despite all the shit that happens to him, he stays a straight-laced hero who doesn't kill (Clone Saga excepted obviously). Cap is great because even when the world around him has completely changed, become more complex and morally gray, he still stick to his idealism and makes it work. And do I really need to bring up Superman vs. the Elite?

There is also the fact the characters don't need to be dicks in order to be flawed. You can give them flaw without going against the character's concept.

edited 9th Aug '15 3:52:34 AM by Theokal3

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#40515: Aug 9th 2015 at 4:05:18 AM

Cynics talk about Superman being a "big blue boy scout" like it's a disability (or at the very least, a crutch for writers). But if you look at Captain America, Marvel has turned his innate sense of right and wrong into an asset and catalyst for a fantastic inner conflict as it the new world plays against his homegrown, smalltown ideals. He is at odds with the jaded cynicism of the Earth he hopes to save. Russo Brothers embraced that aspect of Captain America because the best stories stem from this aspect. It DEFIES Steve Rogers. Also it kind of turned him into Snake of the entire Marvel universe without all the extra baggage and graphic content Metal Gear is known for.

edited 9th Aug '15 4:06:13 AM by xbimpy

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#40516: Aug 9th 2015 at 4:09:55 AM

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=123767 brutal-fight-scene-for-daredevil-15.jpg Punisher kills his first thug

edited 9th Aug '15 4:13:31 AM by xbimpy

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40517: Aug 9th 2015 at 4:12:25 AM

I think that Superman is boring but not because he is a boy scout, but because he is too powerful. At least as long as you don't throw a green stone at him. Then he goes into the other extreme.

I love that Steve is more or less the moral compass of the MCU. He might be wrong from time to time or making foolish decisions, but you can trust him to always do what is right and not what is easy. He is the most interesting when he is faced with a moral dilemma. For example the final fight in The Winter Soldier. Steve knows that he must stop the helicarrier, no matter what the cost, even if it means that he has to fight against Bucky. He doesn't want to kill him and does it very best to avoid it, but he also knows that he can't loose this fight. But once the chip is in place and he is relieved of this burden, he just stops fighting, knowing the Bucky might kill him.

The big difference between Superman and Captain America is that Superhuman is superhuman while Cap is peak human. Meaning Superman is more than a mere human can hope to be, but Captain America is what a human could be if the best of the best come together.

edited 9th Aug '15 4:14:22 AM by Swanpride

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#40518: Aug 9th 2015 at 4:26:01 AM

Also, no matter how idealistic capitán is, he is still lost in a unfamiliar time, that give him flaws and worries about what to do, he is strange man in strange time with even stranger friend.

Súper is a boy scout not only in perosnality but concpet: he is god amout mens, vasly powerfull and yet humble...is boring for most parte.

That is why for all the flaws the movie got, it finallt show what hapen when superman cant fix something with the death of zod, is a powerfull scene in their own right

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#40519: Aug 9th 2015 at 4:30:01 AM

But they are both human o_O. They have all the quirks and flaws of real people. One is just an alien, so he can do more. Here's the difference. Superman doesn't want to be seen as a paragon. That's what humanity thinks, so he respects it and also he has fun staying true to it. Instead he wants to be loved and treated like the people he saves but knows that is not a realistic expceation. I think he's the type of person who helps kids like Billy Bastion with their homework and invites you over to drink beer while watching a local football game on his downtime. Pretty down to Earth. If not making us happy on the mundane level then he is out assisting some natural disaster relief. He does it because the Kents raised this way and he had the experience of knowing how precious life is more than any of us.

It's Captain America is the one who wants to be the paragon because of his relationship to politics. Steve Rogers devoted himself completely to being Captain America, working to give others the freedom to accomplish their goals because America gave him the freedom to a make difference during a time when everyone wanted to.

They are both honest to a fault, and unhesitating in facing any threat. Their resolves only shake when they feel that they had not done enough to complete the task or that their work was not accomplishing a better outcome. Batman is the same way except he broodens a lot.

edited 9th Aug '15 5:10:13 AM by xbimpy

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40520: Aug 9th 2015 at 4:39:59 AM

[up][up] Like I said, the difference is less their character flaws and more their power level. I think the ideal Superhero is more powerful than the standard human but not so powerful that he is nearly untouchable by anything which wouldn't be able to level the earth, too.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#40521: Aug 9th 2015 at 5:07:46 AM

I was looking forward to Captain America: Civil War a great deal when it was first announced, because of how well the Russos did on Winter Soldier, but my anticipation is decreasing every time they announce another character who will be in the movie.

Winter Soldier was good because it was self-contained enough to include strong characterization for Cap, Fury, and to a lesser extent Black Widow, and to delve into how the film's events affected them. Civil War is now another Avengers movie rather than another Cap movie, with even more superhero characters than Age of Ultron, and I think it's going to face the same problem as Age of Ultron: shoving too many characters and plot elements in, with the result that none of them get the development, complexity, or dramatic impact they deserve. And with the result that development of relationships between characters, such as between Cap and Bucky or Cap and Widow, is sidelined.

I agree about liking to have some protagonists who are just good people. Every. Single. Other. MCU lead protagonist is a white guy who needs to grow up and learn responsibility. Iron Man (all the Iron Man films, really), Thor, Quill, Scott Lang....it's really very tedious. Cap's another white guy but at least he has different character traits for a change.

edited 9th Aug '15 5:11:33 AM by Galadriel

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#40522: Aug 9th 2015 at 5:15:51 AM

Uh Civil War is a Captain America movie o_O. It's mainly told from Cap's perspective about the consequences of his actions. And now his actions directly correspond with the Avengers because the team is a fundamental part of him. Age of Ultron was his acceptance that he no longer live without. They just messed up big time. Now governments are reacting the second they mess up again. This is how he reacts to their reactions as Tony Stark joins their side. Also being an adaption of Civil War automatically implies it is superhero vs superhero, which is very different from Avenger vs input bad guy. There's a difference between an Avenger run and all superheros vs each other because Super Registration Act. The only time they come together is at the end when Zemo shows up.

edited 9th Aug '15 5:24:55 AM by xbimpy

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#40523: Aug 9th 2015 at 5:20:58 AM

It's got the entire cast of the Avengers films in it, plus some new people (Black Panther and Spidey). It may be told from Cap's point of view, but it can't have the same focus on a small number of characters that Winter Soldier did, because there are simply too many characters.

edited 9th Aug '15 5:22:46 AM by Galadriel

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40524: Aug 9th 2015 at 5:24:14 AM

Recently someone pointed out that The Winter Soldier had five villains. I didn't even notice beforehand, but between Pierce, Zola, Bartoc, Crossbones and The Winter Soldier (not that I count him as villain), the movie is packed with them. Which is why I am not too worried about the cast list. I have the feeling that most of the Avengers will be there in one or two action pieces, but they won't all get their own arc, and Steve will be off on his own with Falcon pretty soon. I mean, that's the advantage of the Mcu, right? You can just throw in characters without having to establish them all.

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#40525: Aug 9th 2015 at 5:26:26 AM

[up][up] They aren't the focus point. Captain America is, so they put value onto him through their external observations. You are receiving information about him from the other characters. The point is to put insight on how Captain America and Iron Man feel as everyone else picks a side for whatever reason

This is very much a Captain America story. An Avenger story would be otherworldly and grandiose, putting emphasis on each member individually. Not political drama centered around 2 members

edited 9th Aug '15 5:40:31 AM by xbimpy


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