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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40401: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:01:42 PM

Killian was using the name the same way Marvel did way back in the day - something that sounds vaguely foreign enough to be scary.

So, no.

edited 8th Aug '15 5:01:55 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#40402: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:08:24 PM

It's easy enough to justify the name.

If the Mandarin believes that whatever he's doing is for the benefit of the world (as any effective villain with dreams of conquest should), then... *gasp*... maybe he'd actually consider himself a civil servant!

edited 8th Aug '15 5:09:03 PM by Khfan429

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#40403: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:10:49 PM

A civil servant is a friggin' government employee. It'd be like if a supervillain, thinking he benefited the world, called himself "Assistant to the Senator of New Jersey."

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#40404: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:12:20 PM

[up]And if the government he has in mind is his own?

Seriously, this feels like a really silly and arbitrary line to draw when it comes to names.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#40405: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:17:42 PM

Because the line isn't just the silliness. It's that the people who picked it had no goddamn clue what it meant. They picked it because it sounded foreign and thus kinda scary.

The Mandarin is the comic book character equivalent of a white twenty-something biker getting a random Chinese glyph tattooed on them because it looks cool.

edited 8th Aug '15 5:18:11 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#40406: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:18:29 PM

Guys, we get it: you want to see the actual Mandarin in the MCU.

But there are a ton of problematic things about the Mandarin, starting with the fact that his original portrayal was super racist. Sure, it was acceptable in the '60s (just barely), but then it wasn't. Do you know how many times the Mandarin has been used as Iron Man's arch-enemy since then? Not many. Most use the Crimson Dynamo or Iron Monger or Madame Masque.

The Mandarin also didn't really fit in Iron Man's rogues gallery - he didn't use armor, he didn't even really use technology. He had "magic" rings which came from a crashed alien vessel, but that was it. His whole schtick was alien technology disguised as mysticism.

Sure, you could make him a better character — by changing nearly everything about him, but then that, too, would be the Mandarin in name only.

Or you could try to make a storyline that addressed the fact that people try to place the blame on bad things on the some unknown "other" (Muslims, Mexicans, foreigners, etc) and have the Mandarin just as a mask for the real villain, who is a white rich American.

Now that's a message that I don't think everyone got when they saw Iron Man 3.

I find it hard to believe that Trevor Slattery gets as much screen time. Even if that is the case we only see the real Trevor during one scene and he isn't even a villain. Killian is clearly the focus of the plot.

Just because he's not the villain doesn't mean he doesn't get focused on by the plot. He does, for several scenes. You're just mad that he's not the villain, but that just makes him more interesting.

edited 8th Aug '15 5:19:59 PM by alliterator

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#40407: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:20:27 PM

But the "other" wasn't even an actual person of a different ethnicity. It was another white dude. A coked-out-of-his-head actor. And it also still leans towards the fact that every bad guy in Tony's movies had been "Man in Suit with personal beef with Tony Stark."

My various fanfics.
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#40408: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:25:00 PM

Killian was using the name the same way Marvel did way back in the day - something that sounds vaguely foreign enough to be scary.

Which is why I liked it. It took everything that made the Mandarin a stupid caricature and used it to make a point about it being a stupid caricature that people would eat up anyway.

If the Mandarin believes that whatever he's doing is for the benefit of the world (as any effective villain with dreams of conquest should), then... *gasp*... maybe he'd actually consider himself a civil servant!

But why would he use an antique word of the Qing Empire? Mandarin is not actually a Chinese word. Why would a Chinese people use it?

Or you could try to make a storyline that addressed the fact that people try to place the blame on bad things on the some unknown "other" (Muslims, Mexicans, foreigners, etc) and have the Mandarin just as a mask for the real villain, who is a white rich American.

Now that's a message that I don't think everyone got when they saw Iron Man 3.

Indeed. I wonder if the writers should have made it more explicit, but I got the idea just fine. Movie!Mandari is even both "Chinese" and "Islamic". It bought iconographies from USA's biggest "enemies". It just needed a touch of Russian to make it perfect.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#40409: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:25:52 PM

But the "other" wasn't even an actual person of a different ethnicity. It was another white dude. A coked-out-of-his-head actor.

...huh? Ben Kingsley is not white. You know that, right?

"Kingsley's father, born in Kenya, was of Gujarati Indian (Ismaili Muslim Khoja) descent. Kingsley's paternal grandfather was an extremely successful spice trader who had moved from India to Zanzibar, where Kingsley's father lived until moving to Britain at the age of 14."

edited 8th Aug '15 5:26:13 PM by alliterator

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#40410: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:28:08 PM

But the "other" wasn't even an actual person of a different ethnicity. It was another white dude. A coked-out-of-his-head actor. And it also still leans towards the fact that every bad guy in Tony's movies had been "Man in Suit with personal beef with Tony Stark."

Exactly. That is the point. The "Mandarin" is just some random American actor in the end. Although I will note that Ben Kingsley is of mixed ancestrality, and his appearance is ambiguous enough that you can buy he is some sort of Asian in Mandarin's ominous videos. Helped he was dressed up to his neck in "ethnic" clothes and the dark lighting obfuscated his face.

edited 8th Aug '15 5:29:21 PM by Heatth

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#40411: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:28:10 PM

[up][up][up][up] and them we got ultron who is evil tony....we get it marvel, you want tony to be evil, just do it already!

edited 8th Aug '15 5:28:43 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#40412: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:28:38 PM

Sonof Sharknado Ben Kingsley is of Indian descent. Also, Vankov was the main baddie of IM 2. He didn't wear a business suit if that's the type of suit you mean. If you mean a suit of armor, Killian didn't wear one either.

[up]With Civil War on the way we just might be getting that.

edited 8th Aug '15 5:29:53 PM by windleopard

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#40413: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:28:40 PM

@Alliterator

....son of a bitch.

My various fanfics.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40414: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:29:30 PM

So we all basically stand by what we stand here right?

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40415: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:29:32 PM

@unknowing: Well they are adapting Civil War

Zing!

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#40416: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:31:04 PM

@windleopard Justin Hammer was the secondary bad guy in IM 2. So two different men in two different suits with two personal grudges.

My various fanfics.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#40418: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:32:04 PM

I don't know why so many people think Ben Kingsley is white. I mean, there are a lot of those of Indian and Pakistani descent in the UK. Sure, it's 80% white, but there's still over a million people that came from India (which used to be British colony).

edited 8th Aug '15 5:33:05 PM by alliterator

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#40419: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:32:23 PM

[up][up][up][up]all hail futher stark! I will enjoy the hell up civil war if that happen

edited 8th Aug '15 5:32:51 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#40420: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:35:47 PM

@alliterator in my defense, he is usually quite pale.

My various fanfics.
xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#40421: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:37:41 PM

[up][up[up]] Mandarin is half Chinese. His mother is white. BK is mixed Iidan. They are still half Asian at least. dunno

edited 8th Aug '15 5:40:53 PM by xbimpy

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#40422: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:39:20 PM

Or you could try to make a storyline that addressed the fact that people try to place the blame on bad things on the some unknown "other" (Muslims, Mexicans, foreigners, etc) and have the Mandarin just as a mask for the real villain, who is a white rich American. Now that's a message that I don't think everyone got when they saw Iron Man 3.

why would they not get it?

it would be one thing if they left that implicit but killian spells it out in his dialogue.

edited 8th Aug '15 5:40:54 PM by wehrmacht

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#40423: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:42:50 PM

[up][up][up] That's sort of the point, I think. Killian just grabbed an actor that looked vaguely ethnic to him, so he could be a stand-in for any terrorist group out there:

"I know it's a little over the top sometimes. It's not entirely my fault; he has a tend... he's... he's a stage actor. They say his Lear was the toast of Croydon, wherever that is."

[up] Does he? I know Feige and Shane Black spelled it out in interviews, but I don't think Killian ever did. He just wanted someone to blame for the explosions the Extremis was causing.

edited 8th Aug '15 5:43:42 PM by alliterator

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#40424: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:44:17 PM

killian used a political windmill. "The second you give evil a face, a Bin Laden, a Gaddafi, a Mandarin, you hand the people a target" he knew very well the ramifications of hiding behind what gets America riled up. but the plot cut it off before it could be given any more details

edited 8th Aug '15 5:49:36 PM by xbimpy

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40425: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:45:40 PM

So Mandarin isn't even a real word in Chinese? Then why is that the name of their language? You could still justify the name if you were going for an Anti-Villain or Well-Intentioned Extremist version of the character. At this point I'm thinking that's the best possible route they could have taken but I can see why they didn't. That sort of thing would take several movies to set up and at the time nobody knew if the MCU plans would pan out.


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