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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#40376: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:41:11 PM

Sun Wukong is probably too OP though tongue

I'm talking about the original one. And Son Goku too.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#40377: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:42:31 PM

[up][up]Haven't read Morrison's Great Ten. What was the problem?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#40378: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:43:15 PM

[up][up][up],[up][up] He created the Great Ten which is supposed to be China's own superhero team. There's some cool ideas in there, some funny tongue-in-cheek jokes about Chinese culture that I can chuckle at but a lot of it is tied up in a Frankenstein of garbage stereotypes.

Look up the Mother of Champions.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:45:09 PM by AlleyOop

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#40379: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:43:35 PM

[up][up]I haven't read it myself, but from what I can gather, imagine just about every single Chinese sterotype and common character trope under one roof, and you get Great Ten. Though I'm sure someone who's actually read it can give you a better idea.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40380: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:46:56 PM

[up][up]I just did. What the fuck kind of superhero is that?

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#40381: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:47:12 PM

Okay I just looked them up and read about Mother of Champions one of their members.

Wow. Seriously Morrison? Come on, I expected better from you.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#40382: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:48:38 PM

The actual solo series about them is actually not terrible, but Morrisson didn't write it.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:48:53 PM by AlleyOop

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#40383: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:49:45 PM

@windleaopard yeah they were pretty cool.

[1]

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#40384: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:51:24 PM

Gene Khan sounds like an okay name. It's not like the Khan part would come up often and Gene is a fairly normal name.
@Kostya, I suppose it's a bad time to mention that Gene is his nickname in the Armored adventures, short for Temujin because I guess in the pronunciation the last part sounds more like "Gene" than "Jin". So he was Temujin Khan.

It would also give Tony an excuse to shout "Khan!!!"
Lord knows the cartoon already made use of the gag.

The Blog The Art
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40385: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:54:29 PM

Wasn't Temujin the birth name of Genghis Khan? I didn't think they were that blatant.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40386: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:54:42 PM

"As I said, it is perfectly possible to make a good character out of Mandarin. The problem is that everything from his basic concept is shit. You need to take that pile of shit and make something good while still keeping the few good things the character developed over the years."

Y Eaaaaaah, I disagree. Saying his Yellow Peril aspect is problematic I can understand. But saying the entire character concept is shit? Aside from the fact that's very subjective from you (remember, this characters does have fans), I have read comics where they actually managed to make him work. He is hard to update, yes, but he is in no way a bad villain. Don't think he would have persisted as Iron Man's nemesis otherwise.

And again I am not against taking liberties over the original character, it's just that... well, you have to keep some aspects so he is at least recognizable.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40387: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:57:48 PM

Which aspects?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#40388: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:59:01 PM

I figured the biggest aspects one would need would be: Asian decent, commanding presence, rings.

The Blog The Art
xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#40389: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:16:30 PM

[up][up][up]

Mandarin is a shitty rouge though. His motivations to take over the world are always laughably bad and always switched out by IRON MAN MUST DIE, his characterization is weak because it never leaves a strong enough impact for Tony to take him serious plus it isn't consent to believe it, and his accomplishments do not change Tony's status quo in the long run. Plus the Rings Power so happened to be irrelevant to his existence. When he died they just found a new host.

Mandarin is an interesting concept like any other comicbook villain out there, but an individual human? An actual character and not just an excuse to pound? Mandarin isn't fully realized because no writer has done him justice. Hell the rest of Tony's rouges have a lot more potential to bring out some deep stories, for example if Justin Hammer ever came back, but they ended up overshadow by Mandarin because he has the number 1 status. Most of all he isn't hard to take down, which is why the modernized version sometimes had Tony in a position that was beyond his control.

Also Mandarin is a racist stereotype. When they updated him 10 something years later he stepped into the Chinese version of Silicon Valley except that was just a deception for his taking down capitalism except that was really a deception for beating up Iron Man because he hates Iron Man. See stuff like Heart of Darkness make no sense!

edited 8th Aug '15 4:41:01 PM by xbimpy

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40390: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:17:53 PM

He'd make a better mascara

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#40391: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:20:22 PM

"Mandarin" just isn't a good villain name. In relation to China, it means something like "civil servant" or "bureaucrat". Not really a badass title someone would deliberately adopt.

edited 8th Aug '15 4:21:42 PM by Galadriel

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#40392: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:22:29 PM

we were discussing just having him be an actual chinese man a few pages back who doesn't use a codename.

Khantalas E-Who-Must-Not-Be-Gendered from More sheep than people (Before Time Began) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
E-Who-Must-Not-Be-Gendered
#40393: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:22:39 PM

As far as I remember, mandarin isn't even a Chinese word.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#40394: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:25:18 PM

Ah, correct. From Wikipedia:

The English word "mandarin" (from Portuguese mandarim, from Malay menteri, from Sanskrit mantrin, meaning "minister or counsellor") originally meant an official of the Ming and Qing empires...When Jesuit missionaries learned the standard language in the 16th century, they called it "Mandarin", from its Chinese name Guānhuà (官话/官話), or "language of the officials".

It's not originally Chinese (another reason a Chinese character probably wouldn't use that title), but it does essentially mean "civil servant".

edited 8th Aug '15 4:25:56 PM by Galadriel

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40395: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:40:22 PM

Honestly I don't understand the problem with that name. I mean, it's cheesy and silly when you look at the meaning? Big deal! The villain of the first Iron Man movie was literally named Iron Monger! (yeah I know he never gets explicitly called that but still) Spider-Man biggest nemesis is named after a creature people identify at best as a weak monster in fantasy settings and at worse like a fairy tail leprechaun (and his french name literally translates to "Green Buffoon")! The Fantastic Four's Arch-Enemy and one of the most popular villains in Marvel is named Victor Von DOOM! Comics book are filled with silly aliases that aren't that intimidating when you start thinking about them, and that has never caused that much of an issue when it came to adapt them. Stop acting like if the Mandarin was an isolated case.

As for the aspect I'd say to keep about Mandarin, I'd essentially suggest this: chinese, or at least foreign, preferably asian; mastermind; relies on a form of alien tech to get his powers (it doesn't have to be the rings, but I really think that considering the kind of tech they have established in this Universe with the Asguardians it wouldn't be that much of a stretch. I am also fine with him wearing the rings but them being just normal rings); preferably charismatic (yeah I know, some of you think he isn't, but trust, I have read comics where he is, and actually does push Tony over the edge); and somehow provides an interesting foil to Iron Man.

edited 8th Aug '15 4:46:00 PM by Theokal3

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#40396: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:44:08 PM

They're accurate in most cases, though. Iron Monger dealt iron. Green Goblin dressed in green and wore a goblin mask. Dr. Doom has a doctorate and tends to cause calamity. In what sense is the Mandarin a civil servant?

edited 8th Aug '15 4:44:34 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#40397: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:45:01 PM

[up][up]I think Mandarin is a problematic name like Yellow Claw. They both suffer the same fate you associate with someone like Fu Mancuh by name alone. still that doesnt stop it from being used in live action animation comics or video games. i think the name wouldnt be a problem if it was more symbolic to the character

edited 8th Aug '15 4:47:28 PM by xbimpy

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40398: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:48:58 PM

[up][up]Really? "Red Skull" (from a time period where Red was associated to communists) is accurate for a nazi villain?

As for how the Mandarin is a civil servant, that's easy actually: All Hail the King provides the explanation that he was an advisor to various kings.

Also may I remind you that in the original comic the sole reason the Avengers chose to name themselves that way was because it sounded cool rather than because they were avenging anything?

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#40399: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:51:29 PM

[up]Dude's got a visibly red skull. You can't really argue with that.

And yeah, The Avengers was picked because it sounds cool. The fact that this was acknowledged and that the writers visibly knew what the word meant puts it above the Mandarin, who needs any reason he might have that name retconned in.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40400: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:58:17 PM

[up]It wasn't his skull originally. He wore a mask. Which he chose to make red despite this being his enemy faction's color.

Also, in Doctor Doom's case, it wasn't an appropriate nickname. It was his friggin' real name. And yet whenever someone tries to change it to something more realistic you get fan outcries.

Also, here is a scoop: you know what's the one thing Shane Black kept for Killian when he tried to make him his version of the Mandarin? The name. So by arguing the name is stupid you are essentially saying the movie was silly to keep it.

edited 8th Aug '15 4:59:46 PM by Theokal3


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