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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40351: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:05:56 PM

The more I think about it the more unsure I am about the rings. If they absolutely had to have them I think they could do one of two things: 1. Make the rings an Infinity Stone in disguise. 2. Just make them mini-Arc Reactors that power the suit.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40352: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:08:22 PM

The more I read about it, the happier am I with Marvel's approach.

We'll get enough over the top villains with mystical powers with Dr. Strange.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#40353: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:09:27 PM

I would just make them armor upgrades or it can be a translation misrepresentation. Like the ancients called the places where they were stored "rings" but they are actually different bits of alien armor or tech that become a more powerful weapon when put together the correct way.

The Blog The Art
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#40354: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:11:58 PM

Helen Cho as the smart Asian scientist? No real issue among the fanbase. Luke Cage getting a show? No complaints despite the questionable origins of the character.

Though honestly I feel like a large part of that was the fact that the MCU has been so bad with characters of color period that fandom was happy to have an Asian woman in the cast at all.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#40355: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:18:11 PM

I agree with Heatth that one major sticking point of the Mandarin is his name. That's part of what puts me off about him besides all the Yellow Peril aspects. It's very Fu Manchu-esque. There probably are good ways to rewrite him that Shane Black wasn't willing to invest in. It's lazy of him to cop out, but it is a daunting task that requires significant overhaul and I don't think I'm creative enough to suggest a good solution for that.

Of his aliases Gene Khan and Temujin probably sound really silly in live action, and Xin Xhang isn't even real Chinese. Zhang Tong might work though. They could indirectly reference his classic name by throwing in a line about being descended from a long line of imperial officials on both sides, and that they were somehow able to maintain their wealth and privilege in the midst of the Cultural Revolution by taking advantage of the gross corruption. Would probably hit a sore spot with the Chinese government funding them though. Maybe they could also hint at him having Mongolian or Manchurian heritage too. I don't see much of either group showing up in modern-day settings.

The easiest but also intellectually lazy route I can think of at the moment is to turn him into a retread of Stane/Hammer/Killian/Cross. A modern businessman who uses his scientific genius and connections to pull the strings behind world governments, manufacture weapons, and build or replicate the ten rings. To make it personal he can be from an older and his rivalry with Tony comes from being Howard's archnemesis during the latter Cold War. It's not very interesting, and it still has a lot of problems with China Takes Over the World, but it stands out less compared to Fu Manchu.

@Kostya That armor's pretty cool on the whole, but I don't know if the samurai design of the helmet was really necessary.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:21:36 PM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40356: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:18:41 PM

We can certainly not complain about Luke Cage before we have seen him. Plus, the more progressive part about the character, the interracial relationship, is something we will get to see for sure.

[up]Just recently I stumbled over an angry rant article concerning the name "Cho Chang" (mainly that it is not a genuine Chinese name at all), so I don't think that changing the name of the mandarin nilly willy works.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:20:22 PM by Swanpride

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#40357: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:23:10 PM

[up] It can be, just not in the strict Pinyin sense. "Cho" and "Chang" are real Chinese morphemes. Cho and Chang are also ways to write "Zhao" and "Zhang" in English. Not the best one, but Chinese has a history of inconsistent romanization.

First thing I think of with that name is Cantonese for "Grass Orange". Most Anglo Chinese are descended from the South of China or Hong Kong where Cantonese is spoken. They don't use Pinyin.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:25:46 PM by AlleyOop

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40358: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:23:58 PM

[up]I think JKR once said that the name was supposed to mean "butterfly".

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#40359: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:24:03 PM

Yeah, this is totally an issue in a universe where you can have an Nazi organisation named HYDRA led and founded by a guy named Red Skull.

...I fail to see the relation. I mean, the comparison would be closer if Red Skull was some random vaguely menacing German word and he himself was composed of offensive German stereotypes. And it will never be close because the "culture" HYDRA and Red Skull represents is unambiguously evil (Nazis vs Qing China).

The problem with the name Mandarin is it is a nonsense Chinese name of a stereotypical evil Chinese character. The original comic Mandarin was a Yellow Peril character from head to toe, starting with his name. Overall a more decent character was built around him, but it is still difficult to fully separate them. Adaptations and modern interpretations of the character struggle with that. The movie solution was to embrace it and make it a phony instead.

More seriously even that can be solved. You can have him be a guy fascinated in Chinese history who uses it as his motif and as such uses "Mandarin" as a codename to lead his organisation, the same way Wilson Fisk calls himself the Kingpin.

Yeah, that would be a solution, I agree. One not far, in concept, from the movie. But in that case, it anger actual fans of the character, because it is hardly an adaptation of the character, but more of a new character vaguely inspired by it.

As I said, it is perfectly possible to make a good character out of Mandarin. The problem is that everything from his basic concept is shit. You need to take that pile of shit and make something good while still keeping the few good things the character developed over the years.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:25:57 PM by Heatth

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#40360: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:24:18 PM

so just give him an actual chinese name? not like finding out how chinese names work takes a lot of research or time.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40361: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:25:43 PM

Gene Khan sounds like an okay name. It's not like the Khan part would come up often and Gene is a fairly normal name.

edit: It would also give Tony an excuse to shout 'Khan!!!'

edited 8th Aug '15 3:27:50 PM by Kostya

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#40363: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:27:05 PM

I think the easiest solution people are missing is to have heroic Chinese characters opposed to him. A major reason China was so cold on the character is because chances are in Iron Man 3 he would have been the only really prominent Chinese person in the film, and of course by the end would've been defeated and killed by the cool white American.

It offsets the issue greatly if you make a point of showing there are Chinese heroes and they're nothing like the Mandarin.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40364: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:27:39 PM

I don't think that Fisk ever called himself the King pin. There is a scene in which Urich uses a king card to symbolize them, but that is, as far as I remember, the closest we ever come to the code name. He is Wilson Fisk, first and foremost.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#40365: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:28:08 PM

[up][up]That is a good point.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:28:17 PM by Heatth

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40366: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:28:58 PM

[up][up][up]You could also make him an Anti-Villain. I don't know why I never thought of it before but it would have worked out a lot better if they introduced him long before he would have become the Mandarin.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:29:43 PM by Kostya

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#40367: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:29:34 PM

Because it'd be silly for him to walk around declaring himself the Kingpin.

I've never had much issue with the whole Comic-Book Movies Don't Use Codenames thing, though I do like when they slip in a reference like Stane saying "We're iron mongers," or Tony telling Rhodey "You wanna be a war machine?!"

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#40368: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:29:49 PM

@Kostya: Except that, at least to me, Gene Khan sounds a tad similar to Genghis Khan. If it was, say, Tom Khan or Chris Khan, that would be one thing, but Gene Khan? It just seems a bit too obvious to me.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:30:14 PM by kkhohoho

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#40369: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:30:31 PM

@Swanpride If that's true she messed up. It's pronounced "woo deep" in Cantonese or "hu xie" in Mandarin. But in and of itself Cho Chang isn't not a name.

@Heatth Yeah one point about making the Mandarin workable is that it's going involve throwing out much of his canon and pissing off a lot of comics fans. But then again if the matter boils down to defending a racist caricature, it's not really a cross they should die on.

@comicwriter Good point. They'd have to do better than Fan Bingbing and Wang Xueqi's cameos though. Chinese audiences hated the blatant shilling. Speaking of Asian characters, I think they were going to have Rumiko Fujikawa at one point. Shame they didn't take it, although if she was going to get dragged into a love triangle with Pepper maybe it's for the better.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:33:53 PM by AlleyOop

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40370: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:30:40 PM

Anomalocaris: Now I'm trying to think of a way to casually refer to him as the Mandarin.

kkhohoho: Well comic Mandarin has this thing where he claims to be Genghis Khan's direct descendant so that was probably intentional. Still it's the only name for him that I like.

[up]They already threw out much of the canon by making him a white guy in IM 3. At least with this they wouldn't add whitewashing to the list of things they did to him.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:33:11 PM by Kostya

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40371: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:31:34 PM

Yeah, this is totally an issue in a universe where you can have an Nazi organisation named HYDRA led and founded by a guy named Red Skull.

Well the Nazis did love to co-opt mythology for their own purposes.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#40372: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:31:48 PM

@comicwriter I believe there were some Chinese super heroes who debuted in Avengers World. They even had Sun Wokung. I'd like to see a film or series of those type of characters like they did with Big Hero 6.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:32:18 PM by windleopard

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#40373: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:39:11 PM

[ask any Germán troper here what they think of red skull and hydra.

First at all: the thing about antman is not much hope but the film itself: it really playing safe, with a generic but entretain villian,quirky side chararter and a typical protagonista, aside for han pym there isnt much to said, the problem come from hope being so much better than scott it feel wasted, even if hope was a men it would feel the same thing: she is quite awsome and scott...not that much.

About DOFP: I actually like her mystique, she fe el the curx of the argument between Charles and Eric about if mutant and human can live in peace or need to defend themselves is to strong, also "depend" is to wrong of a world, all three strugle with their choice and what is the correct thing to do, to said she "depend" is to close of the typical "strong women do whatever the hell they want, strong women no need for anyone!"

And for kitty...yeah she got not devolpment for The trilogy and put her now it will wastefull and pandering at best, the movie focus so much about the trio that even wolverine take a backseat, and Tobías...is that is your reason for not seeing a movie sound...petty.

And for the mandarín, it seen people are dived if you can used without the racist efect and make him an asían villian(and less face it, minorites have problems being villians) others said the concept itself is to tainted to work and other wise will be just denied The elephant in the room or being the mandarin in name only.

Also I enjoy Iron man III than Iron man II

edited 8th Aug '15 3:43:48 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#40374: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:39:26 PM

As long as it's better than Great Ten. WTF was Morrisson thinking.

Sun Wukong is the best. There's a ton of potential there. Anything by Jinyong is also great material.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:40:40 PM by AlleyOop

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40375: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:40:44 PM

What did Morrison do?

edited 8th Aug '15 3:40:59 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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