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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#40301: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:41:40 PM

Trevor Slattery has as much screen time as Aldrich Killian, the actual villain. Really. Check it out.

i'm actually tempted to go in and clock this for curiosity because to me it felt like killian had a much bigger presence in the movie, thought it might be because when we do see killian it's usually revelatory to his motivations and what he's planning, as opposed to the mandarin who mostly just says ominous things to incite fear while remaining really mysterious.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40302: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:42:48 PM

Honestly I don't buy the whole "Killian has no real desire of vengeance against Stark" thing. If it really is the truth then how did Tony skipping a meeting one time make him decide "Hey, I know, I am going to become an evil genius and make profit by using research from that girl he banged while sabotaging it" ? That's still insanely stupid. There is also the fact that for someone with no desire of vengeance, he still did a lot just to hurt Stark (shooting Maya, flirting with Pepper...).

In his own words in the movie, being overlooked made him realize the value of being overlooked, of ruling from behind the scenes.

"...I had a thought that would guide me for years to come. Anonymity, Tony. Thanks to you, it's been my mantra ever since, right? You simply rule from behind the scenes. Because the second you give evil a face, a Bin Laden, a Gaddafi, a Mandarin, you hand the people a target."

And also, "How can I be pissed at you, Tony? I'm here to thank you. You gave me the greatest gift that anybody's ever given me. Desperation."

Kind of makes him the opposite of Justin Hammer in that regard, actually.

He and Maya worked together not because Tony banged her once but because her Extremis research was just what he was looking for. Remember that the first thing he does with it is cure himself of various disabilities.

And he shot Maya because she was threatening to inject herself with Extremis and explode. That was a thing.

I don't know what flirting with Pepper has to do with Tony. Tony wasn't even there. And nothing really came of it. Maybe they were trying to do a plot where Tony's neglect made her start drifting away and they sort of teased it with Happy telling Tony but Tony didn't seem to get worked up about it and they went another direction with Tony and Pepper's relationship.

I don't know. It seems a weird objection to say that Killian flirted with Pepper FOR REVENGE MWAHAHAHHAHAHA

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#40303: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:43:06 PM

@Theokal3: I hadn't seen the show that you're referring to, but I was aware that there had been an adaption on TV that had been somewhat well received. Which was I specifically referred to a single movie - I personally think that a TV show would have more luck eliminating the racist aspects of the character, by virtue of having more time to potentially work with him.

Of course, I don't know if this show truly did succeed in this, since I haven't watched it.

I actually like the Mandarin twist, but I feel that Killian was a weak villain, and thus was a rather weak payoff to an otherwise great twist.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:49:25 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#40304: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:44:43 PM

[up][up][up]Here:

Killian first shows up at Stark Industries and talks to Pepper. Slattery first shows up as "the Mandarin" in the videos.

Killian then shows up again later on as "working" for the Mandarin. Slattery-as-Mandarin makes a few more appearances in video and "shoots" the head of Roxxon.

Slattery is revealed as an actor and gets a bunch of screen time with Tony, then Killian is revealed as villain and gets a bunch of screen time with his henchmen.

The only significant difference is towards the end, when Killian gets in the major battle and then gets killed. Slattery shows up afterwards where he gets arrested and that's that. But before that, both have about the same amount of screen time.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:45:12 PM by alliterator

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40305: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:46:31 PM

Maybe ya'll just too cynical but the reveal surprised me.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40306: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:47:20 PM

@Karkat The Dalek: I understand.

And to answer you, well... of course weither they succeeded or not to adapt the character is subjective, but at least they made him less racist.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:48:04 PM by Theokal3

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40307: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:48:33 PM

@Swanpride last page: So stereotypical characters are okay if they're heroes?

Look, I'm not trying to say Cho isn't a good character in her own right but I feel like there's some kind of double standard going on here.

Helen Cho as the smart Asian scientist? No real issue among the fanbase. Luke Cage getting a show? No complaints despite the questionable origins of the character. Chiwetel Ejiofor as Baron Mordo? People are fine with that even if it makes Dr. Strange a movie about a white guy fighting a a black wizard.

Somehow this all changes when we're talking about the Mandarin. It seems like the very idea of keeping his ethnicity intact while removing the questionable elements of the character is considered unthinkable.

alliterator: I find it hard to believe that Trevor Slattery gets as much screen time. Even if that is the case we only see the real Trevor during one scene and he isn't even a villain. Killian is clearly the focus of the plot.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:50:51 PM by Kostya

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#40308: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:49:00 PM

[up][up]

Me too. And I thought it was hilarious.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#40309: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:51:16 PM

[up][up] Well, the latter two haven't come out yet, so we have yet to see how they're adapted. Neither of them are getting a ton of press at the moment anyway.

[up] I certainly didn't see it coming.

Oh God! Natural light!
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#40310: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:52:29 PM

For me at least it's that those things aren't as bad. Luke Cage specifically, outside of his origin and his early, campy dialogue, doesn't really have much that's especially terrible about him.

And the Baron Mordo thing boils my complaint down to "minority villains are bad", which is in no way what I was saying.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40311: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:52:41 PM

[up][up]Yes but people seem to be fine with the idea. The Mandarin is the only character where a flat out racelift is seen as a good thing by much of the fanbase.

[up]You basically said using him is problematic because he's Chinese even if they removed the evil wizard powers and stuff.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:54:33 PM by Kostya

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#40312: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:56:59 PM

Maybe ya'll just too cynical but the reveal surprised me.

well i didn't see the reveal coming *immediately*. i'm mostly referring to the moment where ben kingsley is unmasked.

in most movies when this kind of reveal happens, you are supposed to be left in complete suspense and wonder who could possibly be behind it all. there's supposed to be some sort of awesome payoff.

but in this case you don't get that. as soon as that reveal is clear, you have all the grounds to guess that killian is behind the whole thing. to me the mandarin honestly felt like a subplot compared to everything else that was going on.

as someone else has said the twist wasn't a bad idea but the payoff was not that good.

edited 8th Aug '15 1:03:19 PM by wehrmacht

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40313: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:02:11 PM

I saw coming that Killian was a villain and that Mara was a henchwoman, but I didn't see the twist coming nevertheless.

And to answer the question above, just because Asian being good scientists is a stereotype it doesn't mean that you can never portray an Asian as scientist ever again. It all depends on how you handle it. And it is way easier to portray a positive character in a non-problematic way than a villain.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40314: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:08:19 PM

in most movies when this kind of reveal happens, you are supposed to be left in complete suspense and wonder who could possibly be behind it all. there's supposed to be some sort of awesome payoff.

I think the key word is 'most'

There are different ways to handle a thing.

In a detective novel or thriller, discovering that the villain was not the villain should make you go BUT THEN WHO

Iron Man 3 is more of an action movie. The mystery isn't the point. The Mandarin was a feint and it fooled the public, Tony, and the audience.

Its all part of the ideological message the movie sets up. And its also a funny scene becuase it is such a swerve from what we've been led to believe about the character.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40315: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:08:33 PM

[up][up]I'm not saying it won't be tough to do but the way I see it there were two options. Option 1: Don't use the Mandarin at all. Option 2: Fix him as a character. I would have been fine with either of those. What we got is just a lazy cop-out.

edited 8th Aug '15 1:09:32 PM by Kostya

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#40316: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:09:28 PM

It is from many pages back, but I still feel the need to reply to that:

Eeeee... He was the title character because the film was supposed to be about Antman? You know, the guy from the comic, who actually was the main character? Also, technically Scott had his arc too.

Why make a movie about Ant-Man and not the Wasp? And if they are making a movie about Ant-Man, why did they make so the plot is more suitable for Hope than for Scottnote ? If if they are doing that, why did they made so Hope was so sidelined in the climax? The thing is, Hope's main role in the story was to train Scott for a job that she was better suited to do. They could have solved that in many ways, but they didn't. They made so a guy took the job a woman was more suited to do.

No it's not a good argument, but it's understandable from his point of view. And from a scenaristic point of view, they couldn't make the movie about Wasp or Ant-Woman because this was a movie adaptation of ANTMAN. I know it's not necessarly a bad thing to take liberty on the source material, but you guys are pushing it. Are you also going to complain about Amazing Spider-Man not being about Gwen being Spider-Woman rather than about Peter because Gwen was a more interesting character?

That is not remotely comparable. Gwen is not a better Spider-Man than Peter. Hope is a better Ant-Man than Scott. T%hat is even a plot point. Also, it is the director/writers who write the story. They could have written so Hope had a more active role and/or wasn't deliberately sidelined. They could have made so Hope was a co-protagonist, but she is board line an Faux Action Girl.

You implied it. You essentially talked about her being an indepenant woman like if it was a good thing for feminism. Don't feel like it was in that case. Last time I checked "Strong Independant Woman" was just as bad of a stereotype as the rest.

Being "better than" is different from being "a shinning example of". Comic movie might not have been a great feminist icon. But, yes, she would have been a more feminist character. My problem with the new X-Men movies is that they have a single women of note in the cast, and even her is largely defined by her relationship with mannote . There would be nothing wrong with the character if they simply had more female characters.

Also, I have trouble seeing how "strong independent woman" is a stereotype or how comic!Mystique falls into it.

PS:I know this have probably been discussed already in the last few pages, with people making better arguments than mine(Like Whowho here. But the last quote really bothered me. Implying a character would be better as another shouldn't at all be taken as "claiming said character is an icon". Even if it wasn't on purpose, it is really annoying to see my argument being so badly misinterpreted.

edited 8th Aug '15 1:14:57 PM by Heatth

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#40317: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:12:56 PM

Iron Man 3 is more of an action movie. The mystery isn't the point. The Mandarin was a feint and it fooled the public, Tony, and the audience. Its all part of the ideological message the movie sets up. And its also a funny scene becuase it is such a swerve from what we've been led to believe about the character.

there are multiple ways of handling things but i don't really care for the way iron man 3 handles it. i don't like killian as a villain so him being behind the whole thing is just kind of lame and underwhelming because the engagement you'd have in a thriller movie isn't there. granted, the specific scene where trevor is outed IS funny though, i'll give the movie that much.

edited 8th Aug '15 1:17:33 PM by wehrmacht

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#40318: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:15:59 PM

I did see it coming Krillian was a villain, but I didn't expect the Mandarin to turn out not being the Mandarin. Although my little knowledge of his original comic book story left me wondering how would they do the magic rings.

The thing is, Hope's main role in the story was to train Scott for a job that she was better suited to do. They could have solved that in many ways, but they didn't. They made so a guy took the job a woman was more suited to do.

That's what the industry calls "realism".

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40319: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:18:54 PM

ouch

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40321: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:23:02 PM

Heath: the whole thing about Hope being a more suitable protagonist than Antman has been explained by the others better than me in posts in-between. I'll let you read these. And I am not against having a movie about the Wasp; in fact I'd rather have a movie about both of them. I just thought Antman took a priority because he just has to come first, being the one where the powers come from. The same way, again, that Batman has to come before Robin.

As for the Gwen Stacy thing, I was half-joking. It was just a snark out of irritation about you and Tobias complaining that a movie called "Antman" was sexist for having Antman as the hero.

As for the whole Strong Independant Woman, do a quick research and you'll understand what I mean.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#40322: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:24:33 PM

[up][up][up][up]Fair enough. Everyone knows realism is important when it is about oppressed groups to still be oppressed.tongue

edited 8th Aug '15 1:28:11 PM by Heatth

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40323: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:24:57 PM

Although the funny thing is Wasp started off as a side-kick to Ant-Man but she grew to overshadow him

Imagine if the Justice League kicked Batman to the curb after he MY PARENTS ARE DEEEEEAD'd Robin and then Robin became the leader of the Justice League and then later he dated Havok

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#40324: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:27:11 PM

I would have wanted Wasp in the full film but I didn't mind Scott and his cohorts joining along. I would've been fine with the film being Ant-Man and The Wasp.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#40325: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:29:18 PM

[up][up][up][up]I do know what you mean by "Strong Independent Woman"(tm). But the term is also used to mean just "good female character". And comic!Mystique doesn't fit the stereotype anyway. She is just a villain whose characterization happens to not be all about other people and, in particular, not about mannote . In that sense, she is better than movie!Mystique because the latter's whole character arc is dependent on Xavier, Beast and Magneto. That wouldn't be a problem in itself if Mystique wasn't the sole relevant female character in the movie and if this sort of thing wasn't a trend.

[up]Scott and his crew are good characters. I really like them. The problem is that the movie made so Scott overshadowed Hope for literally no reason. The plot they created was all about her and her father but, somehow, Scott is the protagonist.

edited 8th Aug '15 1:30:08 PM by Heatth


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