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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
In his own words in the movie, being overlooked made him realize the value of being overlooked, of ruling from behind the scenes.
"...I had a thought that would guide me for years to come. Anonymity, Tony. Thanks to you, it's been my mantra ever since, right? You simply rule from behind the scenes. Because the second you give evil a face, a Bin Laden, a Gaddafi, a Mandarin, you hand the people a target."
And also, "How can I be pissed at you, Tony? I'm here to thank you. You gave me the greatest gift that anybody's ever given me. Desperation."
Kind of makes him the opposite of Justin Hammer in that regard, actually.
He and Maya worked together not because Tony banged her once but because her Extremis research was just what he was looking for. Remember that the first thing he does with it is cure himself of various disabilities.
And he shot Maya because she was threatening to inject herself with Extremis and explode. That was a thing.
I don't know what flirting with Pepper has to do with Tony. Tony wasn't even there. And nothing really came of it. Maybe they were trying to do a plot where Tony's neglect made her start drifting away and they sort of teased it with Happy telling Tony but Tony didn't seem to get worked up about it and they went another direction with Tony and Pepper's relationship.
I don't know. It seems a weird objection to say that Killian flirted with Pepper FOR REVENGE MWAHAHAHHAHAHA
Forever liveblogging the Avengers@Theokal3: I hadn't seen the show that you're referring to, but I was aware that there had been an adaption on TV that had been somewhat well received. Which was I specifically referred to a single movie - I personally think that a TV show would have more luck eliminating the racist aspects of the character, by virtue of having more time to potentially work with him.
Of course, I don't know if this show truly did succeed in this, since I haven't watched it.
I actually like the Mandarin twist, but I feel that Killian was a weak villain, and thus was a rather weak payoff to an otherwise great twist.
edited 8th Aug '15 12:49:25 PM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!![]()
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Here:
Killian first shows up at Stark Industries and talks to Pepper. Slattery first shows up as "the Mandarin" in the videos.
Killian then shows up again later on as "working" for the Mandarin. Slattery-as-Mandarin makes a few more appearances in video and "shoots" the head of Roxxon.
Slattery is revealed as an actor and gets a bunch of screen time with Tony, then Killian is revealed as villain and gets a bunch of screen time with his henchmen.
The only significant difference is towards the end, when Killian gets in the major battle and then gets killed. Slattery shows up afterwards where he gets arrested and that's that. But before that, both have about the same amount of screen time.
edited 8th Aug '15 12:45:12 PM by alliterator
@Karkat The Dalek: I understand.
And to answer you, well... of course weither they succeeded or not to adapt the character is subjective, but at least they made him less racist.
edited 8th Aug '15 12:48:04 PM by Theokal3
@Swanpride last page: So stereotypical characters are okay if they're heroes?
Look, I'm not trying to say Cho isn't a good character in her own right but I feel like there's some kind of double standard going on here.
Helen Cho as the smart Asian scientist? No real issue among the fanbase. Luke Cage getting a show? No complaints despite the questionable origins of the character. Chiwetel Ejiofor as Baron Mordo? People are fine with that even if it makes Dr. Strange a movie about a white guy fighting a a black wizard.
Somehow this all changes when we're talking about the Mandarin. It seems like the very idea of keeping his ethnicity intact while removing the questionable elements of the character is considered unthinkable.
alliterator: I find it hard to believe that Trevor Slattery gets as much screen time. Even if that is the case we only see the real Trevor during one scene and he isn't even a villain. Killian is clearly the focus of the plot.
edited 8th Aug '15 12:50:51 PM by Kostya
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Well, the latter two haven't come out yet, so we have yet to see how they're adapted. Neither of them are getting a ton of press at the moment anyway.
I certainly didn't see it coming.
For me at least it's that those things aren't as bad. Luke Cage specifically, outside of his origin and his early, campy dialogue, doesn't really have much that's especially terrible about him.
And the Baron Mordo thing boils my complaint down to "minority villains are bad", which is in no way what I was saying.
Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.![]()
Yes but people seem to be fine with the idea. The Mandarin is the only character where a flat out racelift is seen as a good thing by much of the fanbase.
You basically said using him is problematic because he's Chinese
even if they removed the evil wizard powers and stuff.
edited 8th Aug '15 12:54:33 PM by Kostya
well i didn't see the reveal coming *immediately*. i'm mostly referring to the moment where ben kingsley is unmasked.
in most movies when this kind of reveal happens, you are supposed to be left in complete suspense and wonder who could possibly be behind it all. there's supposed to be some sort of awesome payoff.
but in this case you don't get that. as soon as that reveal is clear, you have all the grounds to guess that killian is behind the whole thing. to me the mandarin honestly felt like a subplot compared to everything else that was going on.
as someone else has said the twist wasn't a bad idea but the payoff was not that good.
edited 8th Aug '15 1:03:19 PM by wehrmacht
I saw coming that Killian was a villain and that Mara was a henchwoman, but I didn't see the twist coming nevertheless.
And to answer the question above, just because Asian being good scientists is a stereotype it doesn't mean that you can never portray an Asian as scientist ever again. It all depends on how you handle it. And it is way easier to portray a positive character in a non-problematic way than a villain.
I think the key word is 'most'
There are different ways to handle a thing.
In a detective novel or thriller, discovering that the villain was not the villain should make you go BUT THEN WHO
Iron Man 3 is more of an action movie. The mystery isn't the point. The Mandarin was a feint and it fooled the public, Tony, and the audience.
Its all part of the ideological message the movie sets up. And its also a funny scene becuase it is such a swerve from what we've been led to believe about the character.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersIt is from many pages back, but I still feel the need to reply to that:
Why make a movie about Ant-Man and not the Wasp? And if they are making a movie about Ant-Man, why did they make so the plot is more suitable for Hope than for Scottnote ? If if they are doing that, why did they made so Hope was so sidelined in the climax? The thing is, Hope's main role in the story was to train Scott for a job that she was better suited to do. They could have solved that in many ways, but they didn't. They made so a guy took the job a woman was more suited to do.
That is not remotely comparable. Gwen is not a better Spider-Man than Peter. Hope is a better Ant-Man than Scott. T%hat is even a plot point. Also, it is the director/writers who write the story. They could have written so Hope had a more active role and/or wasn't deliberately sidelined. They could have made so Hope was a co-protagonist, but she is board line an Faux Action Girl.
Being "better than" is different from being "a shinning example of". Comic movie might not have been a great feminist icon. But, yes, she would have been a more feminist character. My problem with the new X-Men movies is that they have a single women of note in the cast, and even her is largely defined by her relationship with mannote . There would be nothing wrong with the character if they simply had more female characters.
Also, I have trouble seeing how "strong independent woman" is a stereotype or how comic!Mystique falls into it.
PS:I know this have probably been discussed already in the last few pages, with people making better arguments than mine(Like Whowho here
. But the last quote really bothered me. Implying a character would be better as another shouldn't at all be taken as "claiming said character is an icon". Even if it wasn't on purpose, it is really annoying to see my argument being so badly misinterpreted.
edited 8th Aug '15 1:14:57 PM by Heatth
there are multiple ways of handling things but i don't really care for the way iron man 3 handles it. i don't like killian as a villain so him being behind the whole thing is just kind of lame and underwhelming because the engagement you'd have in a thriller movie isn't there. granted, the specific scene where trevor is outed IS funny though, i'll give the movie that much.
edited 8th Aug '15 1:17:33 PM by wehrmacht
I did see it coming Krillian was a villain, but I didn't expect the Mandarin to turn out not being the Mandarin. Although my little knowledge of his original comic book story left me wondering how would they do the magic rings.
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edited 8th Aug '15 1:21:05 PM by Wackd
Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.Heath: the whole thing about Hope being a more suitable protagonist than Antman has been explained by the others better than me in posts in-between. I'll let you read these. And I am not against having a movie about the Wasp; in fact I'd rather have a movie about both of them. I just thought Antman took a priority because he just has to come first, being the one where the powers come from. The same way, again, that Batman has to come before Robin.
As for the Gwen Stacy thing, I was half-joking. It was just a snark out of irritation about you and Tobias complaining that a movie called "Antman" was sexist for having Antman as the hero.
As for the whole Strong Independant Woman, do a quick research and you'll understand what I mean.
Although the funny thing is Wasp started off as a side-kick to Ant-Man but she grew to overshadow him
Imagine if the Justice League kicked Batman to the curb after he MY PARENTS ARE DEEEEEAD'd Robin and then Robin became the leader of the Justice League and then later he dated Havok
Forever liveblogging the Avengers![]()
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I do know what you mean by "Strong Independent Woman"(tm). But the term is also used to mean just "good female character". And comic!Mystique doesn't fit the stereotype anyway. She is just a villain whose characterization happens to not be all about other people and, in particular, not about mannote . In that sense, she is better than movie!Mystique because the latter's whole character arc is dependent on Xavier, Beast and Magneto. That wouldn't be a problem in itself if Mystique wasn't the sole relevant female character in the movie and if this sort of thing wasn't a trend.
Scott and his crew are good characters. I really like them. The problem is that the movie made so Scott overshadowed Hope for literally no reason. The plot they created was all about her and her father but, somehow, Scott is the protagonist.
edited 8th Aug '15 1:30:08 PM by Heatth

i'm actually tempted to go in and clock this for curiosity because to me it felt like killian had a much bigger presence in the movie, thought it might be because when we do see killian it's usually revelatory to his motivations and what he's planning, as opposed to the mandarin who mostly just says ominous things to incite fear while remaining really mysterious.