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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40276: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:03:16 PM

Oh, I don't know, superheroes fighting supervillains? I am fine with having a message behind but if the message undermines the story, it doesn't work.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:03:29 PM by Theokal3

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40277: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:04:00 PM

I still say not using the Mandarin because he's racist is a cop-out. The appropriate reaction would be to make a non-racist interpretation of the character instead of cutting out one of the few Asian characters with a significant role.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40278: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:04:04 PM

Considering that this kind of tackling the more problematic parts of Comic book lore is typical in the MCU, I think that was a quite deliberate move.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#40279: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:04:04 PM

[up]x3 How does the message undermine the story?

[up][up]It is possible for the same problem to be solved multiple ways.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:04:58 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40280: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:06:21 PM

"I still say not using the Mandarin because he's racist is a cop-out. The appropriate reaction would be to make a non-racist interpretation of the character instead of cutting out one of the few Asian characters with a significant role."

Basically what I am saying. Last time I checked nobody had a good reaction when they tried to make the Shredder white.

"How does the message undermine the story?"

Because it trades a potentially more charismatic and interesting villain for one who is petty, pathetic, too similar to the previous ones and has one of the dumbest motivations ever to be a villain. Electro from Amazing Spider-Man 2 was more convincing. All for the sake of a message. Also because it basically insults the comic; I am okay with taking liberty on the source material, but you just DON'T take a superhero's Arch-Enemy and turn him into a fake. Nobody would have tolerated if they had done this with Luthor or the Joker.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:10:53 PM by Theokal3

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#40281: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:09:46 PM

The story of Iron Man 3 is commentary based, so as long as the villain doesn't break that idea I don't see how Killain invalidated the plot.

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#40282: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:10:35 PM

See, when you say "undermine", I assumed you meant that the story contradicted its intended message. But it appears what you're really just saying is "I don't like this version of the character", which isn't the same thing. The story works.

Yeah, Killian's motivation is dumb, but he's a stand-in for a system that is constantly creating its own villains, which is also pretty dumb.

Nobody would have tolerated if they had done this with Luthor or the Joker.
Gotham is literally doing this with the Joker right now. Smallville did it with Luthor and folks were pretty okay with it.

Also, y'know, non-comic fans know who those people are.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:12:21 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#40283: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:12:29 PM

even disregarding my feelings towards the twist, i would also agree that i don't think killian was a very compelling villain. at least he has a motivation and backstory, but he just comes off as...pathetic? he doesn't really have much charisma to speak of.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:13:04 PM by wehrmacht

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40284: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:13:39 PM

People make the mistake of thinking Killian is motivated primarily by revenge on Stark.

Stark standing him up motivated him on the path he went all ruthless and all but Tony Stark is not the top of his list of priorities.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:15:46 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40285: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:14:15 PM

Wackd: What they did isn't a solution. The appropriate response to racist caricatures is not to remove the minorities entirely. Then you have no representation at all.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40286: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:14:28 PM

"See, when you say "undermine", I assumed you meant that the story contradicted its intended message. But it appears what you're really just saying is "I don't like this version of the character", which isn't the same thing. The story works."

Nah, it's just that, being french, I mistook undermine with another word. What I meant was that the message was causing problems with the story. And no, the story doesn't work. Though to be fair Killian is only one of the many reasons it doesn't.

"Yeah, Killian's motivation is dumb, but he's a stand-in for a system that is constantly creating its own villains, which is also pretty dumb."

Are you suggesting that was intentionally dumb? Because the way they treated it, it seemed like they wanted it to be serious, deep and meaningful. Which made this Syndrome-esque villain seem even more out of place.

"Gotham is literally doing this with the Joker right now. Smallville did it with Luthor and folks were pretty okay with it."

Yeah, I am sceptic about this. I saw neither of these show, but Gotham takes place years before Bruce even becomes B Atman so OF COURSE they can bring Batman. And I am pretty sure Luthor was real in Smallville, from what I watched.

"even disregarding my feelings towards the twist, i would also agree that i don't think killian was a very compelling villain. at least he has a motivation and backstory, but he just comes off as...pathetic? he doesn't really have much charisma to speak of."

My thought exactly.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:17:37 PM by Theokal3

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40287: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:15:56 PM

[up][up][up]Yaah, Killian actually has no feeling of revenge whatsoever toward Tony, he just needs him to figure out the formula. But what I don't get is why they threw in an obsession with Pepper?????

edited 8th Aug '15 12:16:06 PM by Swanpride

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#40288: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:17:18 PM

Did he?

He was flirting with her but he was also perfectly willing to fill her with Extremis to see what would happen.

I figured he captured her for leverage against Tony if he was alive plus who knows what Maya had told her.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#40289: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:17:38 PM

I mean, generally I'm not in favor of race lifts that turn minorities into white people, but you've got to admit, when you're dealing with a character with an incredibly toxic history, who cannot exist outside of that toxic role—I mean, you can make Mandarin look less like Fu Manchu, but he's still going to be an evil Asian industrialist with mystical powers. I'm hard-pressed to believe any good can come out of that sort of representation, and as such I think Iron Man 3 is the best they could've done short of just plain not using the character.

Moreover, I think that if you're gonna use the excuse that "real" Mandarin would've meant more Asian representation, than maybe the problem isn't with the fact that the "real" Mandarin wasn't used. Maybe, just maybe, folks should be demanding different Asian characters.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:19:30 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40290: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:21:16 PM

Honestly I don't buy the whole "Killian has no real desire of vengeance against Stark" thing. If it really is the truth then how did Tony skipping a meeting one time make him decide "Hey, I know, I am going to become an evil genius and make profit by using research from that girl he banged while sabotaging it" ? That's still insanely stupid. There is also the fact that for someone with no desire of vengeance, he still did a lot just to hurt Stark (shooting Maya, flirting with Pepper...). Which makes me note another thing by the way- Killian was incredibly cliché. Like, Sam Raimi Green Goblin level of cliché, minus the Narm Charm.

[up]Oh, you don't think that's possible? Here is how I would have done it: I would have made the Mandarin a guy who just happened to be asian (without the offensive stereotypes), and rather than use the whole mystic thing, use the origin from the comic where the rings actually are alien tech he recovered from a crash Makluan ship. Which would be in line with the Sufficiently Advanced Aliens thing established with the Asguardians and the Chitauri. Then, he would have kept the rings hidden and used them, as well as other alien tech he found in the ship, to create his own industrial empire and eventually become either a concurrent to Stark or support terrorist organisations, your call. He would then represent exactly what Tony fears: the existance of alien tech beyond his understanding, something he is afraid of because it's bigger than him. And that way, Tony defeating the Mandarin would hare represented him overcoming his fear and moving on from his issues following the battle of New York.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:26:37 PM by Theokal3

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40291: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:23:03 PM

The first two movies had two evil American industrialists and a Russian scientist as the villains. The only difference with the Mandarin is the fact that he's not white which is a dumb reason to not use a villain in my mind. Marvel was willing to use Chiwetel Ejiofor(sorry if I butchered that) as Baron Mordo so it's not an issue of having minority villains.

edit: I will admit that I think ditching the rings would be a good idea if they did wind up using him. I was a proponent of them before the movie came out but now I realize they might not work too well. They should still give him a way of replicating their powers with technology.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:24:16 PM by Kostya

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#40292: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:25:15 PM

What they did isn't a solution. The appropriate response to racist caricatures is not to remove the minorities entirely. Then you have no representation at all.

They didn't remove minorities - did you not see the movie? Trevor Slattery was clearly a minority. They just didn't make him into the Mandarin.

Also, this argument basically boils down to "I like the Mandarin and they could have made him not-racist!" vs. "Commenting on the fact that we often blame an 'other' for our own crimes is an interesting and compelling story, even if Killian himself isn't."

edited 8th Aug '15 12:26:27 PM by alliterator

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#40293: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:26:43 PM

[up][up]China has a long history of getting beat up on by white colonialists, both in fiction and reality, because it's seen as an economic threat. It also has a long history of being fetishized by those same colonialists because "mysticism", which is also used to patronize it.

It's like saying "well the gangster thug in this movie was white so I see no reason why they couldn't have used this black gangster thug character."

edited 8th Aug '15 12:27:11 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40294: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:27:58 PM

[up][up]Trevor Slattery is not even a major character. He has three or four scenes in the entire thing and isn't even the real villain. At the end of the day the director wanted us to think Killian was the true Mandarin which makes him a racelift. If they hated the Mandarin that much then just don't use him. You can do the AIM subplot without him.

[up]And Asian people are also stereotyped as being geniuses. I don't recall people complaining about Dr. Cho being a scientist. Heck, Luke Cage is getting his own TV show. This is the same guy that started out as a shameless attempt to cash in on the Blaxploitation genre. Clearly they think they can do the show in a way that avoids the racist implications of the original character. Why is this any different?

edited 8th Aug '15 12:31:43 PM by Kostya

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40295: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:28:18 PM

[up][up][up]... You do realize Slattery actually was english and only made himself look indian through plastic chirurgy?

edited 8th Aug '15 12:29:19 PM by Theokal3

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#40296: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:35:02 PM

[up]Ben Kingsley really is Indian if I'm not mistaken.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#40297: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:35:19 PM

[up][up][up]Because a hero and a scientist are both positive characters?

edited 8th Aug '15 12:35:27 PM by Swanpride

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#40298: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:36:32 PM

pretty sure there are multiple ways of making the mandarin a good character without being an overly racist fu manchu stereotype.

and honestly the idea behind killian and the whole terrorist scapegoat for fear thing is cool, but was not really something that i felt had a very big impact because it deserved to be in a better movie. if we could have had a better movie without i'd ditch killian in a heartbeat.

Ben Kingsley really is Indian if I'm not mistaken.

yep, he's english but of indian descent.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:37:43 PM by wehrmacht

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#40299: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:39:33 PM

... You do realize Slattery actually was english and only made himself look indian through plastic chirurgy?

Huh? Where the hell did you get that? You do know that there are Indian people living in Britain, right? There are British Indians. Thinking that only white people live in England is pretty racist.

Trevor Slattery is not even a major character. He has three or four scenes in the entire thing and isn't even the real villain.

Trevor Slattery has as much screen time as Aldrich Killian, the actual villain. Really. Check it out. He shows up for about as much time. And making him not the real villain is kind of the point of the movie.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#40300: Aug 8th 2015 at 12:40:11 PM

[up][up]Well, I did give a suggested version above. Here is it if you want to see:

" Here is how I would have done it: I would have made the Mandarin a guy who just happened to be asian (without the offensive stereotypes), and rather than use the whole mystic thing, use the origin from the comic where the rings actually are alien tech he recovered from a crash Makluan ship. Which would be in line with the Sufficiently Advanced Aliens thing established with the Asguardians and the Chitauri. Then, he would have kept the rings hidden and used them, as well as other alien tech he found in the ship, to create his own industrial empire and eventually become either a concurrent to Stark or support terrorist organisations, your call. He would then represent exactly what Tony fears: the existance of alien tech beyond his understanding, something he is afraid of because it's bigger than him. And that way, Tony defeating the Mandarin would hare represented him overcoming his fear and moving on from his issues following the battle of New York."

[up]I am pretty sure it's explicitly said during The Reveal in the movie.

edited 8th Aug '15 12:41:39 PM by Theokal3


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