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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
"I don't think Marvel is weeping 'oh if only we had not done it the way we done did it'"
Definitely not. Which is why they dedicated a short to retcon this twist away.
edited 8th Aug '15 10:24:36 AM by Theokal3
@ Targetmaster Joe and Raven Wilder- I actually suggested that a couple of pages back. It could definitely work. Like Latveria could be the old name for Sarkovia and I see Doom rebuilding through a combination of high tech and conquest. Probably because I learned of it via Game of Thrones, but Dubrovnik
would be a decent model for Latveria.
On the topic of diversity, there's definitely some things that rub me the wrong way- like the treatment of Mike (pre-Deathlok) on Agents of SHIELD and the decision to kill off Victoria Hand and Isabelle Hartley. Probably could also throw in killing off Tripp (being a minority is a dangerous thing on a Joss Whedon property).
And on the film front, it seems obvious that at least in part the decision to move forward the release dates of Captain Marvel and Black Panther is because Marvel thinks they might bomb and wants to get the successful movies out of the way first.
As far as characters go, I hope that Phylla and Moondragon show up in the next Guardians. I'd kind of generally like to see some punch-clock HYDRA mooks, and so you could have Janice as the Beetle and Machinesmith (I know he is not a member of HYDRA in the comics).
I kind of like the idea of going ahead and doing a Miles Morales film or having a nonwhite Peter. I will say though that if you are going for a comic-based Miles, Donald Glover would be way too old for that part (ditto the choice to have a younger Peter).
Edit- Incidentally, if Moondragon was in Guardians, they would undoubtedly make her an alien, since MCU!Drax is not human.
edited 8th Aug '15 10:35:09 AM by Hodor2
Pretty sure the short was just a bone thrown to the people who didn't like the twist.
It doesn't look like they're ever going to follow up on it.
And them throwing a bone doesn't really equal them weeping or regretting how they done did it.
Forever liveblogging the Avengers
It does imply some degree of perceiving this twist as an Old Shame. They could have just ignored the angry fans like they did about Ultron not being Pym's creation.
edited 8th Aug '15 10:38:48 AM by Theokal3
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Maybe not as much Old Shame so much as "Here. Now shut up."
edited 8th Aug '15 10:39:06 AM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!as far as the phase 2 films go:
1. Winter Soldier
overall the best written and most technically solid mcu film yet. it has a legitimately exciting and tense first half, every characters gets to do something cool and helpful, and it's probably the mcu film with the most solid emotional backbone.
2. Guardians of the Galaxy
Extremely fun and enjoyable movie that has a completely unexpected take on space opera by being really quirky. i especially enjoyed the framing device of having the soundtrack be old pop songs, both because it gives the movie a unique identity and ties into quill's character.
3. ant-man
not a particularly exceptional movie, it was alright.
4. iron man 3
this film left me so underwhelmed. there were elements of a good movie here but they just couldn't come together to make it happen. the most interesting part of the movie, tony's ptsd, does not get a proper and satisfying conclusion. the twist with the mandarin isn't a bad idea, but is not executed very well and has little impact when it's finally unveiled. it's a more interesting film than iron man 2 but overall still a disappointment.
have not seen dark world or age of ultron yet, didn't care for the first thor movie and i hear the second is also underwhelming, and age of ultron is no longer in theaters and i'll have to wait for it to be on dvd/netflix.
Re: Mandarin. There is no way you could have had be portrayed as the same as his comics counterpart without controversy. The character is so difficult to adapt because of the Yellow Peril, foreign monster trappings of his initial characterization. Remember the twist that there was a real Mandarin was only revealed in a direct-to-video one shot, which would have seen less of an audience than a cinematic blockbuster.
Not to mention, Batman Begins did something similar with Ra's al Ghul, showing that the handsome, smooth talking Irish man was the true leader of the organization of ninja terrorists, not the Fu Manchu looking guy. Making a version in line with the comics would have the G.A asking if Marvel didn't realize it was 2013. Add in the lack of diversity in the MCU, and that meant of of the few prominent PO Cs was a villain and an offensively stereotypical one at that.
honestly i'm not really a fan of the comic book mandarin (i don't really know anything about him), so i don't care that much about the twist itself. it's most likely never going to come up again in a future movie, we just can call iron man 3 a mess and let that be that.
my main problem with the twist that i've repeated a few times is that it's not very hard to see it coming.
killian got a lot more screen-time and focus in the movie than the mandarin. the mandarin only really shows up every once in a while to remind you he exists and is committing acts of terrorism. when ben kingsley is finally unmasked you are intrigued for a moment and then you just immediately assume killian is the real mastermind because who else would make any sense? there is no suspense or thrill to it at all. that's why i found it underwhelming, because it was obvious.
it's the same thing with ra's al ghul being behind dr. strange in arkham city. not only is it the most logical conclusion, the character himself is already in city as it is, making it even easier to guess.
edited 8th Aug '15 10:53:05 AM by wehrmacht
@winleopard: Oh don't get me wrong, I do realize that. And I would have been fine with an adaptation taking some liberties while still making the character recognizable. In fact I was looking forward to it. I wanted Marvel to prove they could adapt the Mandarin despite the difficulty, make him a suitable supervillain yet still more credible than in the comic. But instead they took the easy road and made him a fake. And gave his name to a character who had basically nothing to do with him and lacked the charisma to to considered a worthy arch-enemy to Iron Man. This is why I am mad.
@wehrmacht: Well, the only reason why it's hard to see it coming is because fans know how important the character is to the Iron Man mythos and assume they would never dare do that. Since you knew nothing about him you were immune to that and could right through it. Looking back I admit I probably should have seen it coming.
edited 8th Aug '15 10:54:45 AM by Theokal3
Maybe they realized that they couldn't make the character work, at least not within a single movie.
Or y'know maybe there's more value in using the character to indict American xenophobia and the way it fuels the military-industrial complex than there is seeing if there's some way to redeem a Yellow Peril villain without stripping away literally every facet of his character.
Maybe.
Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.I actually like it better when Marvel is commenting on the more questionable aspects of their history then pretending that it never happened. They already addressed propaganda, the way female comic book writers (and females in general) were forced out of business after WWII, and the questionable side-lining of female heroines in current adaptations (even though it would have been nicer to actually get to see Wasp in action, that they at least commented on it felt appropriate). And the Mandarin twist is a really good commentary on how the yellow peril influenced comic books.
All I wanted was someone, anyone, that would use the Makulan Rings. That person could be as white as snow for a all I cared as long as they used the rings, but then I'm shallow like that.
As far as "All Hail To The King" goes, I'm pretty sure even people that did't like the Mandarin twist though the short was dumb and agree with the fans of the twist.. They're like, "Why even bother making this? You already made it clear what you were going to do with the character."
That, and I'm sure we all learned that the short was planned to be made before the reception to the twist was received, so it's not like you can just throw it in some peoples face as "There's your Author's Saving Throw ! Happy now? Like I've seen it interpreted as here. Food for thought.
edited 8th Aug '15 11:27:55 AM by VeryMelon
As far as I'm concerned 'All Hail To The King' was made to give us more Ben Kingsly and Sam Rockwell, which is exactly what I wanted and exactly what I got. The possibility for a new Mandarin character at somepoint saves Marvel from limiting it's options.
Also, I realized that the MCU A-force at this point wouldn't be terrible.
Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, Hope Van Dyne, Lady Sif, Gamora and Lava Powers Pepper Pots as the team leader.
EDIT: I've said before that the real Manderin would work well as a Black Panther villain.
edited 8th Aug '15 11:31:04 AM by Whowho
Shit, yes. MCU A-Force sounds amazing.
Give them a movie, a book, and no fewer than two breakfast cereals.
Forever liveblogging the Avengers"Maybe they realized that they couldn't make the character work, at least not within a single movie."
I have seen a friggin' children cartoon make it work. Don't you dare tell me it wasn't possible. If you can make a movie with a cyborg racoon and an alien tree as protagonists work, you can adapt the Mandarin.
"Or y'know maybe there's more value in using the character to indict American xenophobia and the way it fuels the military-industrial complex than there is seeing if there's some way to redeem a Yellow Peril villain without stripping away literally every facet of his character.
Maybe."
Bull. Crap. That's not what these movies are supposed to be about and they did this only because Shane Black wanted to avoid using Mandarin because he saw him as racist and was too unimaginative to make him work without the racist aspect. Also there is NO value in doing that when you do so by rehashing the plot of the previous two movies. Satire or not, this movie essentially made us believe we were finally gonna get something different as a villain only to change at the last minute.
"As far as I'm concerned 'All Hail To The King' was made to give us more Ben Kingsly and Sam Rockwell, which is exactly what I wanted and exactly what I got. The possibility for a new Mandarin character at somepoint saves Marvel from limiting it's options."
I am completely fine with that interpretation^^
edited 8th Aug '15 12:01:16 PM by Theokal3
So, um, what are these movies supposed to be about?
Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.

I don't think that Wrights original script actually had the father/daughter aspect in it. I think the plan was originally to make it a mentor/mentee relationship, focussing on Hank and Scott and contrasting with the relationship between Hank and Cross. When I watched the movie I got the impressive that the father/daughter angle was added after that. Especially since you actually could make the whole movie about the relationship between Hank and Hope unless you really want a professional thief in the mix.
But that's what you get if you give your property to a guy who seems to have zero interest in writing about female characters.