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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
By the point Ant-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy was released, Black Widow was more popular than them. Doctor Strange is not more popular than her or Captain Marvel either. Marvel is already in the point where they are not adapting only their most recognizable properties. Why the all the less known properties they adapted so far are led by white guys? That excuse worked great for Phase 1. But in Phase two they were already taking chances, but not with diversity.
Also, I've seem plenty people complain about the lack of diversity in X-Men. It is basically 7 movies about the same 3 white dudes, which people have complained plenty about plenty. One of the biggest complaints about Days of Future Past was how Kitty got side lined of her own story.
PS:It is worth noting that people complain more about diversity in the MCU(or, at last, such complaints are more vocal there) because that is one of the few areas there is to complain about. The MCU is good. The movies are good and hyped and loved. There isn't nearly as much controversy in them when compared to Man of Steel or even the X-Men franchise. Since that is one area they are not doing so hot, people notice more easily and complain about it. In the other movies, far too many people are complaining about other stuff instead.
edited 8th Aug '15 5:43:14 AM by Heatth
Diversity wise, DC has shown a recent willingness to prioritize it. Race bending Deadshot, committing to a Wonder Woman film before even having a script treatment (she may be well known, but she has no definitive character interpretation to adapt) stocking the justice league with Cyborg, saying that Hal Jorden wont be the next green lantern. And can we take a moment to admire how ingenious and important a polynesian Aquaman is?
Meanwhile, MARVEL has shown a willingness to prioritize diversity; all of their films do have token females and token POC. Race bending Hemdiell was certainly a smart move. But that's also some unfortunate missteps. The Maximoff twins not being visibly romani, ANT-MAN having so little female presence in it, more films staring a white guy named Chris than films staring women or people of colour put together. Certainly there is no malice behind this, but it's a good question that a studio like MARVEL, who can get away with anything, doesn't try to get away with diversity.
Now why Disney gets so much flack; well, I think it's because it's a lot easier to criticize media you're invested in. It's because the MARVEL films are GOOD that people hold them to a high standard.
Honestly, it does annoy me that Spider-man has been prioritized over the black and female properties, and I would have preferred the Maximoffs to been either visibly romani or at least played by romani actors regardless of if they were white, I wish that the cast for Civil War wasn't overwhelmingly male, and I still wish Edger Wright was never given the ANT-MAN job so that when the script was taken from him they didn't have to tipple Hope's role, double the number of female characters and vastly expand the role of the Hispanic character just to make a film which scrapes by on diversity while logically it should have been at least half about women dealing with their farther figures.
But I care because MARVEL gives me a reason to care.
Yeah, and the people with sense have complained plenty about the X movies are just "Wolverine and the Wolverines: A Wolverine Story" and how they managed o make the most interesting women in the Marvel universe into pale versions of their former selves, sans Mystique.
And they had options like Spider-woman (and for the last time, people, her property has nothing to do with Spider-man, anyone that thinks she's tied up with Sony needs to look up her history and have their head examined), Tigra, Patriot, and... Uh....
Uh....
Uhhhhh..... Hold on, let me look at my game again...
Wow, okay, Point to Swan, every other major minority in Marvel is tied up in X-men or other stuff where they're being wasted.
Marvel has a problem.
The Blog The Art![]()
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Watch Ant-Man in theatres. You miss out on a lot of really cool effect otherwise.
Couldn't. Still living with my parents, and they weren't interested. Decided to watch it online in the event they decide they want to watch Civil War. Better to avoid Continuity Lock-Out in my book, because they fell for it when we watched The Avengers without watching Captain America The First Avenger.
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You forgot She-Hulk, Photon, Miss America (Chavez) and half of the Runaways. Not to mention Wasp who could have gotten her own movie or, at last, a more important role.
Sure, aside She-Hulk, none of those are recognizable by the larger public. But neither were the Guardian of the Galaxy. Nor Ant-Man and Doctor Strange, for that mater. Yes, it is a shame Marvel's best female characters are being wasted on Fox. But Marvel is already past the point they are done experimenting. Why is Doctor Strange and Ant-Man before Captain Marvel? Why dodes GoG follow the Smurfette Principle when there are actually other female guardians they could have used?
Marvel is great in a lot of things. Diversity in the movies is not one of them. They are not absolutely awful, true. There are some diversity that have been increasing over time. But they could have done more, as they did in the tv series.
edited 8th Aug '15 6:10:33 AM by Heatth
About my opinion of Phase 2, here is my personal ranking:
1) Winter Soldier: by far the movie with the best plot and antagonists, introduced Falcon well and did a great job at making Cap look more badass.)
2) Ant-Man: objectively only; I personally prefered the movie to Winter Soldier, but that's mostly because of my love for the character. And there is no denial this movie did a Marvelous job at getting the character Rescued from the Scrappy Heap)
3) Avengers 2 Age of Ultron: I would have placed Guardians of the Galaxy before it a weeks ago, but looking back (and thanks to reading Swanpride's interesting analysis), I don't think the movie was that bad. It was a bit too convoluted compared to Avengers 1 and some parts (like the Bruce/Natasha romance) were unecessary, but the movie was ambitious and did quite a lot of good things after all. I am especially amazed that they managed to make Vision work in a movie.
4) Guardians of the Galaxy: A fairly simple plot, flat villain and disappointing treatment of Gamora, but still a really fun movie with a concept that really makes it stand out in the MCU, nice characters who incarnate Crazy Awesome and providing info on the Infinity Gems.
5) Thor the Dark World: The movie has really nice interactions between Thor and Loki, hilarious lines from the latter, awesome designs for the Dark Elves and I do like that Thor starts acting with more wits. It also has an interesting thing going on with Odin's conflict. On the downside, the jokes with Selvig were a mixed bag, the movie failed to fullfill its promise to really make us explore the Nine Realms, and Malekith's backstory and motivations had to be cut, leaving him the dullest Generic Doomsday Villain ever. Which should NOT be the case when you cast an actor who played the friggin' Doctor in his role.
6) Iron Man 3: Out of all the Marvel movies, this one was the first to really disappoint me. To its credit, the movie does have some nice moments, like the final battle, and does a good job at pushing Tony over the edge, but it contradicts the previous movies in many way (How can the armor run out of battery without killing Stark if its powered by the very think keeping him alive? And if he could really that easily remove the shards, why didn't he do that sooner?!! It's not like he needs them to pilot the Iron man armor) and Tony's Character Development is in my opinion partially wasted. And while I will admit the twist was clever on paper, that doesn't change anything to the fact it was a major cop-out to avoid using the Mandarin rather than just adapting him properly, which should NEVER happened with a superhero's friggin' Arch-Enemy, especially not if it's to replace him with a villain as pathetic as Killian with the stupidest motivations ever. Not only that, but both AIM and Extremis were completely wasted in the process and they didn't even seize the opportunity to give Tony an upgrade. Also, they didn't use ACDC's music this time.
.... Hem. Sorry about the rant^^' That movie really pissed me off as a Mandarin fan.
Anyway overall, as a verdict, I'd say Phase 2 had some issues not that present in Phase 1, but it made up for it by having more diversity in the kind of movies it explored, and overall I liked it. I am still optimistic.
edited 8th Aug '15 6:14:55 AM by Theokal3
The problem with MARVEL's IP when it comes to diversity is that there most iconic characters tend to be the really old ones from the sixties. As times have changed and there's been a bigger push for representation in media, more and more diverse characters get created, but they tend to be legacy characters or ones who can't hope to ever supplant the iconic sixties characters. The reason the X-Men has such a diverse cast is because the nature of the book demands a rotating cast to allow more fresh students to be fresh and studenty.
Honestly with Captain America going into the spy thriller genre in Phase Two, Captain Marvel would have worked great in that phase to fill in the war film genre. Top Gun with a female cast and an alien invasion and Ronan. Gold. Captain Marvel has a fair few great female characters as legacy characters too; Monica Rambeau and Kamala Kahn (Who makes a better spider man in the current age than spider-man, as I've argued before)
Also I can only pin it on Edger Wright that some one looked at the ANT-MAN IP, reasonably ask 'Well, we've already got two science heroes and Hank Pym is controversial, who else can he have be the protagonist of a movie debuting his dynasty?' and then not come up with 'Janet Van Dyne!' you can have Scott Lang as a supporting character if you still want to use the heist genre (And we need to introduce Cassie as soon as possible so she can grow up to be Stature AS SOON AS POSSIBLE luv dat gal), but considering that ANT-MAN was meant to come out in 2010, it could have filled the espionage genre of Phase 1. (hank would probably have taken Selvig's role in the Avengers)
Strange makes sense as a movie; it unlocks a massive amount of the MARVEL mythology and allows you to do it in a genre not found else where in the MCU. Marvel has shown that at this point they're willing to race bend with Strange; a Black British actor for Baron Mordo, a female actress for The Ancient One. I agree that Stephan didn't have to be white, and that Pedro Pascal is a brilliant fan cast.
She Hulk is so over due to the MCU. She would be a great fit for the netflix defenders series. Because Tony has worked with Bruce for so long it's reasonable that Stark Industries has enough Bruce-blood to justify her origin without Bruce coming out of exile.
Ranking the Phase 2 movies....
1. The Winter Soldier and Got G
Really, don't ask me to choose. The Winter Soldier is objectively the better movie and I enjoyed every second of it. But Got G is simply more fun, I could watch this movie again and again and again.
2. Agent Carter Season 1
Not a movie, but This one was awesome and is so tightly connected with the Captain America franchise that it deserves to get mentioned.
3. Ant-man
A little bit too much exposition in this one, but the creativity of the action scenes make up for a lot. I was behind the idea of a heist movie from the get go but this one is such a pleasant surprise. I mostly liked that it was a heist movie while subverting heist movies...I mean, they all work the same, don't they? I love the genre, but you have always this set-up in which a plan is hatched, is starts, everything seems to go wrong but then...surprise....that was the plan all along. But this time the plan really went wrong at every step. It was great!
4. Age of Ultron
Did I mention that this movie would be way higher on my list if not for the stupid romance? (Really, Marvel, you were doing so well and then such a huge misstep).
5. Iron Man 3
I like the Mandarin twist, I like at least two of the action set-pieces, and I appreciate what the movie was trying to do. I would even say that the movie is still okay if not for the last five minutes. Removing the arc reactor and letting the extremis thing hanging was just stupid!!!!!!!
6. Thor II
If there was every a movie which needed to be salvaged, than this one. And hey, Marvel actually managed to rescue something by adding more Loki. I kid you not, his scenes are the only reason to watch this movie. They are so good, I even considered putting this over Iron Man 3....but in the end a movie which fails at a good concept is still better than a movie which just fails but has one element in it which makes it still worth the watch.
edited 8th Aug '15 6:52:15 AM by Swanpride
I still haven't seen DOFP because this exact thing pissed me off so much.
The X-films and I haven't been on good terms for a while due to Naked Mystique, Storm being effectively reduced to a walking powerset, and basically everything in X3 and Origins, but this was a "last straw" kind of slap in the face. Fox only cares about Wolverine.
Ant-Man actually had to devote a bunch of screentime to adamantly defending the decision to not be a Wasp movie, because even the characters knew it should have been.
Regarding Phase II movies
- Captain America The Winter Soldier - Amazingly well written and performed, and just all around a great film. This takes the #1 slot because of course it does. In addition to all the compliments others have hailed it with, it disproved the rhetoric that three or more villains ruins a film by having five and making them work by uniting them under a single narrative, knowing how much attention each needed for their part.
- Avengers Age Of Ultron - I loved this film. The Avengers are as fun as ever to see interact, the plot is complex with some interesting and compelling subtleties, my favorite superhero Tony Stark is on-form, and I very much loved this version of Ultron, who I've repeatedly complimented for being a rare example of an AI that could pass the Turing Test.
- Iron Man 3 - I didn't especially like the Mark 42. I did, however, enjoy the Mandarin twist, Tony getting to be awesome, and everything about Aldrich Killian, the film's real adaptation of the Mandarin. I'm sort of hoping for the All Hail the King short to wind up a Big-Lipped Alligator Moment because their implication of a "true Mandarin" is going to have a Tough Act to Follow if he wants to try to genuinely sell the Mandarin as some tinpot Third-World warlord.
- Guardians Of The Galaxy - The placement of this film is by no means an indictment as a failure. While the movie had some issues, particularly surrounding its treatment of Gamora, it was all around a fun ride with unique and fantastic characters.
- Ant Man - I didn't like this movie. Most everyone in this thread already knows why.
- Thor The Dark World - Everything Guardians did right, Dark World did wrong.
edited 8th Aug '15 7:19:22 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.@Heatth, I admit i should have remembered She-Hulk and Ms. America but I have no idea who Photon is and while I started some of runaways there wasn't more in the library and from what I've heard the entire thing can be described as a huge and weird confusing mess.
Oh right, and I just remembered Cloak and Dagger (my only exposure to them was the one time the Runaways met them). Though from. What I understand they seem more like street-level heroes better suited for the Netflix shows, but who knows, maybe they could carry a movie.
Oh, we ranking Phase II movies? I can't really do that proper since I haven't been able to see Ant-Man but thus far my número uno is The Winter Soldier, followed by Iron Man 3, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Age of Ultron.
The Blog The ArtI know right? That was actually making me a bit uncomfortable in the theater. It would have been kinda humorous if that wasn't a persistent problem in the franchise. Unlike you, I really liked the movie otherwise, but that one bit really bothered me.
Photon is a previous Captain Marvel with a new name. She was an important Avenger at some point in the 80s or 90s, but is mostly forgotten now. Still, about as relevant as the Guardians were.
Runnaways is not confusing at all. The first act is actually a rather tight story arc. Maybe you read some random issues in the middle or something. It is a kind of story you do need to read from the beginning.
Unless you are talking about Volume 3, that one sucked.
edited 8th Aug '15 7:27:30 AM by Heatth
My list currently goes Guardians of the Galaxy > Ant-Man > Winter Soldier > Age of Ultron > Iron Man 3 > Thor 2.
That being said, Thor 2 is the only one I'd consider a disappointment. I enjoyed it, but it wasn't very exciting compared to the other five.
Sorting out the first four was tough, though. I feel like putting Age of Ultron there is a disservice to it, but the four really are very close in my opinion.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!The mark 42 and all the other armors we see were experiments in remote-controlled armor, so they have their own built in power sources instead of the one in Tony's chest. Hence why they could fly around on their own.
And I thought it was implied that Extremis made it possible to remove the shrapnel. He perfected the formula like he did that one time so he could cure Pepper (boo, let her have lava powers, Tony) and then for good measure used it to cure himself.
Those are just two nits so that doesn't really fix any other problems you had with the movie. Personally I liked it but mileages have been known to vary.
Forever liveblogging the AvengersGuardians of the Galaxy 2 sorely needs Phyla'Vell and Moondragon to further correct the massive gender imbalance.
On the topic of ANT-MAN I'm so glad Wight left. He's a brilliant director and is particularly good at writing about male issues, but he picked a story where quite obviously the story is about a relationship between father and a daughter, and for that reason the daughters needs an equal share of the narrative. Thankfully the writers who inherited it put pains to acknowledge this but if it wasn't for the brilliant representation of Hank I would have wished for a complete do over.
On the topic of Fox, considering who they have playing mystique and the character's sucsess, I'm really surprised they weren't pushing for a mystique film. Likewise with Shadowcat as they cast an actress who is now ascended into being headline material. But then they went 'Chanum Tanum Gambit' which, is odd, but okay. They've got Gina Carano in the Deadpool movie at least, so points for casting a credible female role model in that property.
There's been no confirmation that she hasn't still got lava power; just that it wont kill her by explosion. Pepper doesn't need lava powers, but it's nice to still have the option.
edited 8th Aug '15 7:42:55 AM by Whowho
I also want Phyla and Moondragon. A lot.
(Also Cosmo to say a thing)
Forever liveblogging the AvengersTony probably could that easily have had the shrapnel removed all along. He just didn't because he was so absorbed in Iron Man.
Remember that the doctor who performed the original heart surgery did so in a cave in the asscrack of Afghanistan with a box of scraps. It was far from optimal conditions for performing complex surgery.
Tony came back from Afghanistan with massive PTSD that became his driving factor as a character. Few of his decisions in the first film are particularly rational behavior. He's reclusive, (justifiably) paranoid, and he deals with it by making Iron Man and using the suit to blow away bad dudes - not unlike his behavior in the third film.
But he never goes to a hospital. In fact, he explicitly refuses a hospital when he returns. They bring him a stretcher and he refuses it, demanding a press conference and an American cheeseburger. He never goes to a hospital, never even tries, because a hospital means trusting himself to someone else's care, and his list of trustees consists entirely of Pepper and, later, Rhodey.
Post-Trauma Tony Stark would rather entrust his medical wellbeing to machines he can build and know that they'll work like he wants them to, than to humans whose motives he didn't design. It's the same logic as his suits: he "successfully privatized" the continued existence of his heart. He's more comfortable with a suboptimal solution if the optimal one means stepping back and letting someone else do the work.
edited 8th Aug '15 7:52:06 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.The point that most of Marvel's IP was created in the 60's and 70's where sans Black Panther, Luke Cage, and Falcon, pretty much everyone was white and mostly male, and while that is true, I'm gonna agree with the others and say that's really not terribly relevant these days.
A published backlog is good and makes a film easier, but I don't think people are saying all these characters need movies to themselves. There are plenty of situations where they could pad out a team movie or even appear in supporting roles. Someone already mentioned the fact that the GOTG movie left out Phlya-Vell, Moondragon, and Mantis, for instance.
I think it's pretty absurd that he'd sooner invent a new element to deal with his Palladium poisoning than simply have the shrapnel removed so he doesn't need the arc reactor in his chest.
But I had assumed the surgery would have been impossible without Extremis backing him up.
Speaking of which, if Tony really did perfect Extremis then nobody in the MCU really has any excuse to ever be missing any arms or legs. They can't really put that genie back into the bottle.
edited 8th Aug '15 8:05:45 AM by Anomalocaris20
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!He was choking to death on his own pride. That's a major theme in Iron Man 2.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.@Tobias Drake: You should really have seen the last movies. Fox has grown out of the whole caring only about Wolverine thing lastly. Well, not completely, but they are on the good path.
Also, I am sorry to disagree, but no, as far as I am concerned, Killian is NOT the real MCU Mandarin in a lifetime. Not even close. He is a whiny geekish asshole and Syndrome-wannabe who went all evil mastermind to get revenge for Tony forgetting about him, which didn't even ruin his life (he still got rich and famous anyway) so really he had no reason to hold a grudge THAT long. He has none of the Mandarin's powers, look, personnality, or even ethnicity. The closest he got to be like the Mandarin was this stupid dragon tatto. In Name Only doesn't even begins to describe him. Shane Black trying to establish him as the real Mandarin was a disgrace to both the comic AND the character, and I am glad Marvel retconned this stupidity in All Hail the King, even if we will probably never get to see that real Mandarin. As far as I am concerned, even post-reveal Trevor Slattery was more like the Mandarin than Killian. Heck, even that stupid Barakapool was closer to Deadpool than Killian was to the Mandarin!
edited 8th Aug '15 8:08:50 AM by Theokal3
Tony is all about trying to cram the genie back in the bottle if he can help it.
I don't think he's going to be sharing Extremis with anyone, what with the lava powers and all.
Forever liveblogging the Avengers

edited 8th Aug '15 5:23:55 AM by Swanpride