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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
So it occurs to me, that if they ever get their hands on the X Men and Fantastic Four, Marvel does have a way to incorporate them into the universe if they wanted to.
Cosmic Retcons cause a lot of problems, no doubt about it, but if it can save the X Men franchise via Xmen Days Of Future Past, then it can let that series and the FF come home if they want to.
Not that I expect that to happen, and to be frank, when it does, I'm sure Superhero movies will be out of style, but it never hurts to hope.
One Strip! One Strip!A You Tube guy I follow said that before he saw Age of Ultron, he was expecting Ultron to be like HAL 9000, but when he did see it, Ultron ended up reminding him more of Killface from Frisky Dingo.
Anyone think that's a pretty accurate comparison? I ask since I've never seen Frisky Dingo. (But I do know of its Spiritual Successor Archer.)
edited 7th Aug '15 7:26:24 PM by TargetmasterJoe
Regarding the breakdown of the sides in Civil War, I'm skeptical not just because I'm not familiar with the source, but because of the assumption that there will be stable, well-defined sides at all.
Black Widow might seem to be on Tony's side while actually spying for Cap. Ant-Man might help Captain America out of a tight spot but never actually engage Iron Man or those aligned with him. Both sides might face a sudden betrayal at a key point in the movie.
Looks like the Berlin set for Civil War is standing in for some place in Romania
. Neat because I rarely see that place in fiction unless it's Überwald, the Cold War, or Borat.
to continue a tidbit from the f4 thread:
i think the lack of representation in most films these days is just the idea that you can't sell a movie with a sexual or ethnic minority unless you are a more niche film specifically targeting that audience. which i think is a bit silly because i get the impression most audience members don't really care and will accept those characters if they are entertaining, interesting and/or well-written.
i don't claim to be well-informed about the way hollywood works, but a lot of the execs seem very superstitious and hold ideas about films that aren't really true anymore if they ever were to begin with.
another example of their superstitions is that they believe every action movie needs a Token Romance even though a lot of the audience for these films has grown tired of it and is tolerant of them at best and immensely dislikes it at worst.
the idea behind it is that it's a universal and relatable part of the human condition, which is somewhat true but only to a point, and in assuming that it's such a universal thing they tend to carry it out in very dull and predictable ways that make it harder and harder to relate to or care about it. not to mention the discussion one could have about all the negative impacts this has on the expectations of the audience in their real lives.
note how in every single phase 1 movie except the avengers there is a love interest. out of those, two of them (captain america and iron man, the best movies) had decent characters as the love interest that made the romance tolerable, while the other two (hulk and thor) were much worse in this regard.
part of the reason i like winter soldier was that it was a movie that knew what was important. the emotional core of the film was the relationship between bucky and cap. there was a little bit of Ship Tease with cap and widow but it was just that, it wasn't grating and their interactions were enjoyable.
edited 8th Aug '15 12:26:10 AM by wehrmacht
Interestingly though they didn't actually hook up Tony and Pepper until the very end of the second movie. Also interesting the two better relationships are the ones which were specifically written for the movies and not based on some sort of long-standing comic book romance.
What annoys me the most about the whole race and gender discussion is that I feel that Marvel gets way too much flak while other studios which deserve actually way harsher criticism get away scott free or in the case of DC even get a pad on the back. Honestly, what has DC even done what is so great? They way they write female characters in their TV shows is terrible, they managed to start with a somewhat diverse cast in Arrow but then wrote systematically nearly all diversity out of it so that we have now reached token status, and just because they have, after decades of waiting finally announced a Wonder Woman movie it doesn't mean that it will be a good one. Never mind that I won't praise them for movies which aren't even in production yet, like Cyborg (which I still doubt will happen).
Fox got with the X-men the most diverse comic book property, period. And yet the only thing we keep seeing it the white male lead, while the female characters are awfully written and the non-white characters are non-existent. And yet they get no flak whatsoever.
Marvel has one TV show build around a female lead (and Peggy Carter is all kinds of awesome), and another one which is full of different female characters. You can say about Ao S what you want, but they do know how to write characters based on their abilities and not based on their genders. They build up female comic book characters nobody ever even cared about it. They offer more diversity than any other studio. And above all, they have steadily improved dealing with those kinds of characters. So why is Marvel targeted that vicious? I get it when it is about a clear grievance they could correct easily like the lack of merch for Black Widow, but this acting as if they are the devil themselves and solely responsible for the lack of representation in Comics books is really grating.
Part of it has to do with Marvel as the most successful of the three (and it's cool to hate on popular things) and it's in a better situation to do it. Historically Marvel's been viewed as a lot more progressive than DC for that sort of thing. A third part is probably because of how defensive Feige gets when he gets asked about these things. Tone matters. "At least one LGBT character within the decade" is a depressingly low bar for one. Bi people exist and they're not that uncommon. There's your organic inclusion. Doesn't need a Token Romance since same-sex flirting and exes are a possibility.
I am surprised I don't see as much complaining about Fox but it might be because they're not doing as many hero movies in general. It's a little weird. The X-Men are supposed to embody diversity but most of the really awesome diverse characters are just there for the action scenes.
There was some rightful anger about how First Class treated Darwin and Angel, but aside from that it's mostly Cherik and Mystique gushing as far as the eye can see. I think I don't spend enough time in that fandom.
By the way the solution isn't to "take it easy on Marvel" if that's what you're suggesting. Of course you're always going to see really moronic Everything is Problematic complaints and Windmill Crusaders (see: a good chunk of Age of Ultron bashing), but the proper response is to step up pressure on the other companies. Marvel isn't some poor widdle victim here. They make more than enough money that they can take the heat.
edited 8th Aug '15 2:23:59 AM by AlleyOop
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DC has been getting their fair share of criticism for their movies. See this or any other Internet forum.
Regarding diversity, Suicide Squad has the most diverse cast of upcoming super hero comic adaptations. For all the flak Marvel gets, people are way more cynical about DC.
I'm not saying DC is perfect or doesn't deserve the criticism but Marvel shouldn't be so easily let off the hook either.
edited 8th Aug '15 1:58:06 AM by windleopard
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If you really think DC is seen favourably compared to Marvel, you must have been living under a rock these last years. People are MUCH harsher toward DC than they are with Marvel, DC fans most of all. Marvel is at worse suffering Hype Backlash. DC on the other hand, many of their own fans are asking what the hell they are thinking, complaining about Batman taking Spotlight-Stealing Squad to an absurd level (and of course Superman killing Zod) and saying trying to make their film all serious and realistic is a stupid idea. Really, Marvel is in the best position right now.
Funny, I thought that most people were praising DC/WB for being less restrictive on the directors.
Oh, how do you think Phase 2 was overall? Is Winter Solider still one of the better films despite what people like Cinema Sins have pointed out? For that matter, how would you rank the Phase 2 films?
edited 8th Aug '15 3:01:07 AM by LDragon2
I never have seen anyone complaining about the lack of diversity in DC movies. The only thing I keep hearing is how great The Dark Knight is and that DC will give us the female lead Superhero movie earlier (I mean, who cares that they are responsible for two of the worst out there, right?).
Phase 2 is stronger than Phase 1. Captain America was already a really good comic book movie (I wish it would get more love), but The winter Soldier might be the best in the MCU. Thor II was weaker than Thor I but not by much. Iron Men III..well, that is a draw. Better than Iron Men II but way worse than Iron Man. The Avengers was a better conclusion of Phase I than Age of Ultron was of Phase II, though. I think the clincher are actually the new properties. The Incredible Hulk is still my last fav of the MCU, while Got G is a top spot contender and Ant-Man was a nice little round up. Not perfect, but a lot of fun.
My view: I personally found it strange that Frozen got dinged by pretty much everyone for having an all-white main cast of characters, while How to Train Your Dragon 2 had precisely the same problem yet no one raised a stink. But when you're the biggest, everyone's going to be coming at you, because the burden is greatest on the biggest.
And Marvel is getting there. I'm happy that War Machine and Falcon both get to be part of the new Avengers team.
edited 8th Aug '15 3:53:00 AM by edvedd
Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau ProjectThere's still plenty they've been criticized for. Man of Steel is arguably the most controversial superhero film yet. Green Lantern and Superman Returns killed the first two possibilities of a DCCU. Jonah Hex was eviscerated by critics and fans alike. Even TDKR has it's detractors.
And those are just the films that have already been released. Look at the amount of cynicism that Bv S and Suicide Squad are getting online. Wonder Woman being produced by Snyder is also getting the side-eye from people who remember Sucker Punch.
Yeah, it probably speaks well of how Marvel is regarded in the industry that people give them more flak on diversity. The reasoning: If they can make any superhero work and be successful, then they can make a minority or female-lead film a success too.
With DC, people are more: "Get the movies right first, and then we'll talk."
edited 8th Aug '15 4:09:54 AM by edvedd
Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau ProjectDc gets a lot of criticism concerning the quality of their movies, but not concerning the lack of diversity. Yes, some give them flak concerning the lack of a Wonder Woman movie, but I have heart just as often "well, Marvel didn't manage to put a female lead movie out in ten years, DC does it immediately" (an argument which totally disregards that everyone knows who Wonder Woman is, but Marvel doesn't have the heavy hitter).
edited 8th Aug '15 4:53:20 AM by Swanpride
Managing to see Ant Man online (albeit on bad quality), and I have these to ask:
1. Has it been revealed who portrayed Janet/Wasp I in the 1987 flashback?
2. Although Hank didn't create Ultron in the MCU, would the idea have been something he and Howard attempted to do pre-1989, and that prior to going after Strucker, Tony and Banner found out about the idea and attempted to do it, only to have really started after acquiring Loki's scepter/Mind Gem?
Swanpride, that must be some cave you're living in because out here DC gets criticized as far as the eye can see for some of the same stuff. Problem is that Marvel right now I she biggest thing with the most movies and the greatest financial success and Marvel had always had a history being more progressive than DC, so we have higher expectations.
They have a LOT more films out so far, so they have had more opportunities and more chances to do the diversity thing and get it right. DC's cinematic universe has barely started and before they began it their only success was the Dark Knight trilogy.
Right now people just want DC to make a good superhero movie that isn't about Batman. I mean if they can't even make a good superhero movie in the first place The diversity argument is sort of not even worth considering right now because of their diverse movie fails they'll be able to have the scapegoat of "it's because we were too non-traditional".
Marvel has less excuses, FAR less excuses. I can understand them not taking risks in Phase 1, but to not have a different type of lead until Phase 3 about a decade after they started when they basically have a 2 movies a year schedule on them? That's suspect. That is worth critiquing.
Because all in all, we expect better of them, they're successful enough to do better, but are making the choice not to, whether this choice is conscious or not.
What you're seeing Swanpride, is disappointment. The so called free pass you see with DC is that one can't be disappointed when their expectations were not as high to begin with.
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