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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#39951: Aug 5th 2015 at 9:04:23 PM

How else was he an old general back in the 40's AND somehow get to Xandar all while still being everywhere in the other films?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#39952: Aug 5th 2015 at 9:14:25 PM

Does anyone in here actually like the Fantastic Four? As characters?

Because I am getting really sick of the repeated assertions that they're only worth reacquiring for their rogues gallery.

edited 5th Aug '15 9:14:44 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
DrFurball Since: Jan, 2001
#39953: Aug 5th 2015 at 9:21:48 PM

I love the Fantastic Four. All of them are great characters when written well, and Ben Grimm is one of my favorite Marvel characters, period.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#39954: Aug 5th 2015 at 9:25:01 PM

I like johnny and Ben.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#39955: Aug 5th 2015 at 9:29:50 PM

The Thing is great when he's in Genre Savvy Big Fun mode like this panel (sorry for the small text), as opposed to depressed origin story mode.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#39958: Aug 5th 2015 at 10:13:46 PM

[up] Sorry, but nah, that guy's a douche. tongue

edited 5th Aug '15 10:14:13 PM by TargetmasterJoe

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#39959: Aug 5th 2015 at 10:18:58 PM

Of all the intolerable bugaboos!

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#39960: Aug 5th 2015 at 11:02:44 PM

Well, I like the Fantastic 4 when they are portrayed as middle-aged explorers and a family which simply has fun with their abilities.

And I love The Incredibles, which is closer to the fantastic four than any official fantastic four movie ever was.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#39961: Aug 5th 2015 at 11:07:14 PM

I dislike Reed, especially after Civil War, but I like Sue and Ben, and sometimes Johnny - particularly when he and Spider-Man interact - but all in all what's most interesting about the FF is the situations they encounter and the things they do rather than who they are. They have some of the most interesting mythoses in the MCU.

I also really like the "first family of superheroes" idea, and think the family angle in general is where most of their appeal as characters (at least as a whole) lies. None of the movies have done it, though (or "seem to be doing it," in the upcoming film's case).

edited 5th Aug '15 11:09:01 PM by KnownUnknown

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#39962: Aug 5th 2015 at 11:12:25 PM

[up]I have read two spoiler-free reviews which both observed that the four are never together in one scene until the very climax.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#39964: Aug 6th 2015 at 12:12:19 AM

You know...if Marvel ever gets the rights back and decides to make another stab at them, they should ask Brad Bird to join the project.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#39965: Aug 6th 2015 at 1:47:30 AM

"What?! From what page to what page?"

My bad, I think it was on the FF reboot page actually.

But point is, Fox's relationship with Marvel is terrible, so even if the movie fails Fox will most likely not give back the right to Marvel just to screw with them. Best case scenario the right will revert back with like like they did with Daredevil, which will take 10 friggin years, worst case scenario in the meanwhile Fox will make yet another attempt at adapting the FF which will slow down the process further. So yeah, I don't think Marvel will be recovering the right anytime soon.

"Not giving Thing some shorts? Really?!"

... Who the f**k cares about that?! I am sorry, that's kinda nitpicking.

"They totally could've used Annihilus as the Big Bad, but noooooo, they have to use Dr. Doom! Just because!"

Well... Okay, you are right on that one.

"He's a Bad Ass Scientist-Sorcerer and monarch of a small country with just a few scruples. How can you screw that up? (Did I need to ask?)"

Actually there is a good reason for that. Dr Doom's origin combines elements of fantasy and science, something very hard to adapt in a movie. ESPECIALLY if he is supposed to be the villain, meaning most of the screentime had to be focused on the protagonists, leaving him with little to establish himself. And finally there is the fact that making the heroes and villains have the same origin story in the first movie makes for a more streamlined story. So yeah, Doom isn't a character easy to adapt in a movie, especially not as the Starter Villain.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#39966: Aug 6th 2015 at 2:00:57 AM

You knowing I think that bringing the Fantastic 4 into the Marvel Universe (story wise) could actually be done pretty easily without having to throw together another origin story.

The Fantastic 4 are explorers who go on dimensional journeys, who's to say they didn't get their powers years ago and haven't just returned from a many year long journey into space/another dimension? However they've bought something back/been followed back by something.

The big thing is avoiding doing the same thing that Spiderman kept doing, tell us the same origin story that we already know, and giving us the exact same villain who is iconic in the comics but simply isn't working on the big screen (probably because the villain is so iconic in part because of a long history with the hero, something you can't rush together in one film).

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#39967: Aug 6th 2015 at 2:27:01 AM

The conflict between Fox and Marvel is bitter and sometimes a little bit petty...but it shouldn't override common sense. Holding onto the rights was well enough as long as Fox could expect to make some money out of them. But at this point, they could make the best F4 movie ever and the fans wouldn't go to see it after they have been burned by Fox three times already. Never mind that the fanbase of the F4 has been dwindling long before Marvel decided to cancel the comics. In ten years it will be even smaller, and Fox has no way to built it up again themselves because they only own the movie rights. They can't publish, they can't make a TV show. Meaning they are basically stuck with a property which will only cost them money. It is good business sense to sell it back now that Marvel is ready to cough out some money for it instead of waiting ten years until Marvel gets it back for free. And that is not taking into account the possibility that the popularity of the MCU might dwindle until then. I mean, we know that the success of it can't last forever, and it might not even happen anytime soon, but when it happens, Marvel will have zero interest to pay a dime for a property for which they don't even publish anymore. The only way Fox can now salvage the situation without loosing face is making a deal.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#39968: Aug 6th 2015 at 6:51:25 AM

I like the fantastic four themselves as supporting characters. Reed Richards makes a really good destructive and antagonistic ally. Ha, I remember Reed telling Hank that he knew more about Pym Particles than Hank. Ben and Johnny also work well as big fun team up pals. I'm yet to see much of Sue as a supporting character outside of Age of Ultron, so without seeing a strong portrayal of her I can't really comment on her.

They enrich a setting by being in it; but I don't see much need for stories about them. They're handy to have around because any of their inter-space travels can kick start any plot. You can literally have the four of them in the back ground of Asguard in tourist gear and it wouldn't be out of place.

Also, I believe Fox did actually have confidence in this adaptation at one point. They had a lot of hype surrounding their Daredevil film (Which would have taken place in the 70s and likely would have been R rated, exploring how the mob responds to a man who seemingly can't be intimidated, a man without fear) The fact that they were unwilling to give up Galactus and the Silver Surfer to save that property means they had a strong investment in their eventual ability to use those characters.

edited 6th Aug '15 6:55:10 AM by Whowho

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39969: Aug 6th 2015 at 7:35:15 AM

The thing about Doom is that, on paper, he's amazing. But whenever someone tries to adapt him to film, he turns out to be anything from a disappointment to an abomination. He's a Bad Ass Scientist-Sorcerer and monarch of a small country with just a few scruples. How can you screw that up? (Did I need to ask?tongue)

By adapting him in a Fantastic Four movie, which are the only movies he appears in because, on paper, he's an FF villain.

See, Doom being a Bad Ass Scientist-Sorcerer and monarch of a small country is only relevant to his role as a major element of the Marvel Universe as a whole. It's what makes him such a great villain when he's away from the Fantastic Four.

But within the constraints of his role as "FF villain," he's just whiny baby with a grudge because he thinks Reed scarred his face one time.

So he'll interact with the Avengers or the X-Men or Dr. Strange or whoever because he's a sovereign monarch with ambitions of a global empire, because he's attempting to plunder the depths of Hell to rescues his condemned mother, because he's a political entity with a complex relationship with the U.S., etc. But he only interacts with the Fantastic Four because he hates the ACCURSED RICHARDS and wants to turn Reed into a toilet seat for lulz or something.

General Marvel Doom is what happens when Tony Stark and Doctor Strange perform the Fusion Dance, then take lessons in Shakespearean dictation. FF Doom is Lex Luthor, dropping everything he's doing to chase off after that dastardly Superman. He'll get him one day, he swears!

Doom, as a character, has long outgrown his role as Reed's personal archnemesis. It's just a shame that his film rights still lock him firmly into involvement in only the least interesting stories that are possible to tell with the character.

edited 6th Aug '15 7:38:13 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#39970: Aug 6th 2015 at 7:46:53 AM

The fact that they were unwilling to give up Galactus and the Silver Surfer to save that property means they had a strong investment in their eventual ability to use those characters.

Or maybe they were unwilling to give up some of their most iconic Fantastic Four villains because that'd seriously cripple their ability to make Fantastic Four movies in the first place? I mean, Fantastic Four isn't really in the public eye in the first place, but all the villains besides Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer, and Galactus definitely aren't in the public eye. Fox would be left pitting the Four against a bunch of super obscure characters, and something tells me they don't exactly have Marvel Studios's ability to sell the audience a bunch of obscure characters.

[up]I don't really follow the comics super closely, but last I checked Dr. Doom had become the literal God of the Marvel Universe, worshipped by everyone, while Richards had become some bearded castaway raving about his lost family or something.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#39971: Aug 6th 2015 at 7:47:23 AM

Doom my outgrow his role as an archnemesis, but to some writers he'll always be nothing but an egotistical man-child.

See this issue of Matt Fraction's FF which brutally deconstructs Doom

https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/4606854.html

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39972: Aug 6th 2015 at 7:55:40 AM

[up][up] I do follow the comics super closely, and that only remained true until Reed showed up and sabotaged Doom's character like he always does. It took him about five seconds to go from classy God-Emperor of Battleworld to, "NOOOOOO the Richards must DIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE, this is more important than everything else in my new universe!"

And there were hints of it beforehand, such as making Sue his concubine and Valeria his daughter. As Strange points out in the same issue, Doom felt the need to steal Reed's life for no reason when he was remaking the universe.

The heroes weren't any better either, as the Conflict Ball was strong. Strange informs them of Doom's new universe and how it's worked great for seven years or so, and their response is that he's Doom, therefore it can't possibly work great and he must be overthrown. They don't even take a moment to actually see what Doom's created, they just go, "He's DOOM, he's going down."

edited 6th Aug '15 7:58:28 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#39973: Aug 6th 2015 at 7:58:54 AM

Or maybe they were unwilling to give up some of their most iconic Fantastic Four villains because that'd seriously cripple their ability to make Fantastic Four movies in the first place?

That's why I really don't like Marvel getting the rights to Spider-Man back and I do not look forward to a possible regaining of the Fantastic Four rights.

"We have these interesting characters from thirty years ago. I think some of them might work well in a future film."

"Nah, let's just have the Avengers fight Galactus, the fans will eat it up."

"But what about after that?"

"It'll be discovered that it was actually a Doombot! And Dr Doom will unleash the forces of Hell because he's Evil!"

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#39974: Aug 6th 2015 at 8:04:47 AM

[up][up]Here's the thing about Victor; he may have nuance, depth, and his own twisted honor but they aren't actually a part of who he is. Rather, they act more like his mask in that they hide the fact that he's an egoist who's primary motivation is to prove himself smarter and generally better than Reed, and that any noble traits he has are a direct result of making himself look like the better man (which, ironically enough, gives him some weird level of depth in my opinion).

Remember, this is a guy who saved a baby and then named it after his lost love just to rub it in Reed's face that he failed and Doom succeeded. This is a man who, according to some sources, first inflicted his massive facial scars when he put red-hot iron on his face because he couldn't wait to hide a very tiny scar he got in the initial lab accident. This is a man who stiffed Luke Cage for $100 because he thought it was beneath him to pay someone he considered a street rat, and only paid up when Cage followed him home, burst into his castle (during a Latverian civil war, no less), and beat him senseless. This is a man who actually managed to conquer the world at one point, actually managed to make it better place, then gave it up because he got BORED. These aren't the actions of a noble demon or an honorable person, but of a vain and petty man who desperately wants to be seen as the former two.

edited 6th Aug '15 8:21:36 AM by windleopard

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012

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