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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#39401: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:03:33 PM

Either a Superhero draft, or some regulations which end up being so strict, that they keep the Avengers from doing what has to be done...I wouldn't be surprised if Bucky ends up a bone of contention, too.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#39402: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:06:54 PM

You know, if they adapt world war hulk, Im very sure Wanda is going to be one of the mayor targetd for him, after all that happen in wankanda, she is in his shit list right now.

Tobias: I think you are understimed the whole casualty things, they barely implied things, just dont show it because it will be too dark for them(after all Marvel is light and soft to the dark and grity DC right now) they maybe be casualty...if you see hard enought, but the movies never cared too much about it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#39403: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:07:33 PM

And with their first pick, Team Captain America selects... Stephen Strange!

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39404: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:17:50 PM

Eh, I don't like the idea of a superhero draft.

Which, incidentally, is another thing the SHRA was in the comics, but only under certain writers because of the editorial mandate against consistent portrayal of the thing.

But the reason I don't like the idea of it is because it is unambiguously wrong. While the execution screwed it up considerably, the intended point of Civil War was to have an issue that wouldn't necessarily be right or wrong to support; the SHRA was meant to draw a line down both the characters and the fanbase over subjective political opinions.

Thus, the basic idea: no more secret identities. Criminalization of something that was always technically criminal in the first place, just politely ignored as a Necessary Weasel. It has its pros and its cons; in point of fact, arguments over whether secret identities are a sacred cow of the franchise or if they undermine the characters' heroism have existed since long before the SHRA turned it into a plot point.

A draft, on the other hand, is objectively wrong and that makes it and its supporters indefensible from the word go. The Civil War comics botched their execution of a decent concept, but the way to fix that is not to botch the concept too.

This is the main reason I'm nervous about Civil War being explicitly a Captain America movie: I don't know what changes they're going to make to the SHRA or Iron Man's position, but I'd really prefer they don't dumb down the Act to be 100% Pure Villainous and throw Tony under the same bus they threw S.H.I.E.L.D. under in his last movie, so that Cap can once again effortlessly win the moral debate by surreptitiously replacing his opposition with obvious strawmen.

edited 28th Jul '15 12:21:29 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#39405: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:25:07 PM

At the very least, this time we might get an actual consistent line on WHAT IT IS, and more importantly WHAT IT SAYS.

Because in the comics it was: "Is it a draft? Yes. Is it Voluntary? also Yes. AND ALSO EXTRADIMENSIONAL PRISONS."

edited 28th Jul '15 12:26:00 PM by ultimatepheer

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#39406: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:26:47 PM

I don't think the draft is too unreasonable. If the real world was under the threat of alien invasion and we had superheroes I'd be pissed if some of them decided not to fight. It's not like a draft among normal people in the US. Most of us are fairly interchangeable but very few people can throw cars and crash through walls. We're also not under the threat of extinction.

edited 28th Jul '15 12:27:45 PM by Kostya

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#39407: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:34:02 PM

I'm legit curious why making the SHRA a draft all-of-a-sudden makes it wrong.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#39408: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:36:43 PM

Well drafts involve forcing people to fight against their will for a cause they might not even believe in. Of course in the MCU the cause is keeping the human race from being exterminated. I'd say that's a fairly noble cause. I mean the supers are going to be killed anyway if the aliens win. They might as well try and stop them.

TenebrousGaze Dark Eye from A Shaded Face Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
Dark Eye
#39409: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:38:09 PM

I find it hard to believe that a superhero draft would definitely mean working for the good of the Earth as opposed to what America/their country wanted.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#39410: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:39:25 PM

And that's where the moral ambiguity would come in. I'm just responding to Tobias's claims that the superhero draft makes the Registration side impossible to sympathize with.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#39411: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:42:09 PM

The thing about Ultron in Sokovia is that he wasn't deliberately going out of his way to kill the civvies, he was focused solely on the Avengers themselves, only killing civillians as collateral damage or to deliberately distract the Avengers. It's unlikely that there was anywhere on the rock where some drones were just gunning down civilians away from the Avengers' notice.

You know, on the subject of killing their enemies, I just realized that the GOTG and Ant-Man are the only title heroes to actually kill their leading villain.

Pepper killed Stane and Killian, while Vanko blew himself up.

Loki survived, while Malekith was killed by Dr. Selvig of all people.

Red Skull accidentally the Tesseract, and Pierce was killed by Fury.

Abomination survived.

Though if you count Vision as a title character in AOU then he's the one who killed Ultron, yeah.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39412: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:53:04 PM

Because there are no drafts in the U.S. We have draft registration for men when they come of age but it's a vestigial gesture because we don't have a draft for anybody and haven't for a very long time, to the point that any time someone even proposes a draft in Congress, it becomes a media circus of, "THOSE people want to reinstate the draft, THEY are monsters, don't you HATE THEM?!"

This has even been used as a political tool; one party will bring up a draft in a Congress run by the other party so that they can then twist the ensuing press into, "A draft is being considered under THAT PARTY's Congress! Boo! Hiss! How DARE you, That Party?!"

It's pretty much taken as a given in the U.S. that the draft is always bad, period, and anyone who supports a draft is bad, and there should never be a draft again. Thus, because it's almost certainly going to be an American policy being fought over, if the plot of Civil War is, "Iron Man wants a DRAFT," then it reduces the conflict to "Iron Man is BAD and you should HATE him."

edited 28th Jul '15 12:54:36 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#39413: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:55:18 PM

[up][up]You could said both Vision and Wanda team to kill him(she destroy the main body, vision finish the last drone)

Also Now that I think about it, is funny how she grief for her brother but dosent care what shs did to let hulk free in wakanda

edited 28th Jul '15 12:55:52 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39414: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:55:57 PM

Of course she does. She cares about Pietro. He's a person.

The Hulk's rampage is a statistic.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#39415: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:56:29 PM

So, insane, horrifying idea: They're going to strip out all moral ambiguity and rely on RDJ's natural hot iron man-ocity to carry the movie.

Why not, it worked with the Thor movies?

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#39416: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:56:53 PM

And I'm saying the stakes in the MCU are a lot higher. If people didn't get drafted in the US we'd lose a war but we probably wouldn't be exterminated entirely. The heroes in the MCU are going to be killed too whether they want to fight or not. Shield might as well try to organize them and mount a resistance.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#39417: Jul 28th 2015 at 12:59:31 PM

[up][up]Wait not? I this point we already saw three evil counterpart of tony stark in his movies, plus ultron, I think marvel just want a evil tony already and they cant wait to get it

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39418: Jul 28th 2015 at 1:00:49 PM

[up][up] Don't get me wrong. The U.S. has a powerful military, one of the most powerful in the world. We get by just fine without drafting, because we have enough volunteers to fill our army's ranks. There is no shortage of people in America who are ready and willing to fight and die defending the people and the values they believe in; they don't need to be forcibly enlisted.

The MCU is no different in this regard. The absence of a superhero draft did not allow the Chitauri to rampage unaccosted, not did it allow Ultron to succeed in destroying the world. There are enough volunteers to fill the Avengers' ranks just fine. Not being drafted is not the same as refusing to help when action is called for.

edited 28th Jul '15 1:01:57 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#39419: Jul 28th 2015 at 1:01:04 PM

Since the MCU movies go out of their way to make Tony always right, him being shown as wrong for one would be kind of refreshing- so in that sense, it being a Captain America movie/not a Joss Whedon entry is an encouraging sign.

Of course, they can't make him that bad. The Eisenfuhrer thing is kind of stupid to begin with, and since Tony has to be a good guy in subsequent films, crossing the MEH wouldn't work in that sense either.

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#39420: Jul 28th 2015 at 1:01:17 PM

They weren't in Wakanda, they were in (presumably South) 'Africa'.

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#39421: Jul 28th 2015 at 1:04:19 PM

More F.R.I.D.A.Y.! Jarvis was ok for awhile, but Friday was a breath of fresh air.

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#39422: Jul 28th 2015 at 1:06:36 PM

I don't think forcing someone who doesn't want to fight to fight is a good idea, in any situation. First of all, you can't make sure they'll do a good job. Second of all, you can't make sure they won't snap and turn against you. Specially if those people have superpowers.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#39423: Jul 28th 2015 at 1:13:55 PM

"Since the MCU movies go out of their way to make Tony always right, him being shown as wrong for one would be kind of refreshing- so in that sense, it being a Captain America movie/not a Joss Whedon entry is an encouraging sign."

Oh they cant because he is the face of the avengers and his leader, but clearly is whay they want, I think civil war will try to come close to have a villian tony without him being a villian

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#39424: Jul 28th 2015 at 1:16:09 PM

It worked decently enough in America in the past, and other countries have drafts or other forms of conscripted service. I know that Israel does ("surrounded by enemies"), Nigeria has a year of Youth Service (non-military), and that's just off the top of my head.

I'm not a draft defender by any means, but it's not an incredibly uncommon thing or abject failure.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#39425: Jul 28th 2015 at 1:20:03 PM

I wouldn't necessarily say it worked perfectly fine in the past, or at least that you'll get very man filmgoers to agree with that sentiment. When people think of American history and the draft, they think of Vietnam, and then they immediately start wanting to punch whoever is trying to defend the draft.

That's the thing: it doesn't matter what the draft's actual history is because this is not an issue of history. It's an issue of PR, and the draft has extremely negative PR in the U.S. Regardless of its history, Americans despise the notion of the draft, and will immediately despise any character trying to enact one.

edited 28th Jul '15 1:20:37 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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