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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38876: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:12:40 PM

[up][up]I think there's just confusion about what I mean.

Somebody said something like, "When you think about it, Hank Pym's a bad person who does bad things."

And my response is basically, "You're thinking about this harder than the writers meant for you to be thinking about it. The MCU is a place where consequences aren't explored in great detail. At the end of the day, everything boils down to Black-and-White Morality."

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38877: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:14:04 PM

[up] Okay, I disagree with that statement. Both of those statements.

Also, I really doubt you know at all what all the writers meant when they wrote the scripts.

Actually, you know, I can dispute that with one word: Loki. Actually, sorry, six words: Loki in Thor: The Dark World. In The Dark World, Loki isn't the bad guy anymore. But he isn't the good guy either. He is, decidedly, gray.

edited 23rd Jul '15 2:17:19 PM by alliterator

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#38878: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:16:51 PM

[up][up] If the Inhumans are part of the MCU, then no, there is not only Black-and-White Morality. Arguably, Iron Man 3 also diplays levels of grey.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#38879: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:29:43 PM

@Swan Pride: Not necessarily. There are plenty of movies where the protagonist isn't very likeable, and a lot of these are highly regarded by critics and art majors. Just look at A Clockwork Orange, or There Will Be Blood. Neither protagonist is very likeable, especially in the former movie, and yet they present a very good portrait of their respective focuses, with Clockworks' being that even a criminal should have the right to free will, and Blood's being that obtaining power for powers' sake is ultimately meaningless. Depending on just what you're trying to achieve your film, your protagonist doesn't absolutely have to be likeable.

Though I guess that's why the latter film isn't all that well known, is it?tongue

edited 23rd Jul '15 2:30:26 PM by kkhohoho

Brandon Deadly Vu! from Between Thanksgiving and Christmas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Deadly Vu!
#38880: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:37:44 PM

Before i go see Ant Man, I need it ask...... stinger at the end of the credits? Yes or No?

Like creepy stories? Check out my book!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38881: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:38:39 PM

I am not sure if you can call the lead of Clock Work Orange the Protagonist. This is more a story which focusses on the villain and analyses him. It's like saying that Norman Bates is the protagonist of Psycho. The characters are the focus, but the movies are more about how other people react to them than their choices and development.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#38882: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:39:04 PM

I am not sure if you can call the lead of Clock Work Orange the Protagonist. This is more a story which focusses on the villain and analyses him. It's like saying that Norman Bates is the protagonist of Psycho. The characters are the focus, but the movies are more about how other people react to them than their choices and development.

Villain Protagonist is a trope for a reason. they're not mutually exclusive things.

and kkhohoho is right. "sympathy" is not really necessary for a protagonist or character. they just have to be interesting/entertaining. failing to be either of those, then you just have a bad character, period.

edited 23rd Jul '15 4:03:58 PM by wehrmacht

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#38883: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:39:48 PM

Before i go see Ant Man, I need it ask...... stinger at the end of the credits? Yes or No?

Yes.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38884: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:40:03 PM

edited 23rd Jul '15 2:40:13 PM by VeryMelon

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38885: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:41:33 PM

@kkhohoho: Yeah, those movies have Villain Protagonists. So far, Marvel hasn't had one of those yet.

edited 23rd Jul '15 2:41:44 PM by alliterator

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#38886: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:42:28 PM

Hank Pym and Edward Cullen. Two peas in a Complete Monster pod.

This discussion is about as engaging as "Superman destroyed Metropolis!"

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#38887: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:46:46 PM

[up][up]True, but they're still the protagonists, and still not very likeable, which is all I was saying. A film doesn't necessarily need likeable protagonists to be a good movie.

However, the film needs to be designed to support said protagonist not being very likeable, and your average Superhero movie isn't really designed that way, so I suppose in, say, your average Marvel movie, it's best if the protagonist is still likeable.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38888: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:50:04 PM

Yeah, even anti-heroes like the Suicide Squad or the Punisher are designed to be likable, which is why we have Black-and-Gray Morality.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#38889: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:55:24 PM

Speaking of Hank, I spent the whole movie expecting him to turn out to be somewhere between Anti-Hero and Anti-Villain - both because of his ruthlessness in doing what he feels his right, and the general ambiguity of his personality in comparison to Scott himself.

Even though it didn't happen, I'm still expecting it to happen in the sequel. Especially if he becomes even more obsessive about bringing Janet back.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38890: Jul 23rd 2015 at 2:58:55 PM

[up]Screenjunkies had today a couple of interviews which did suggest that they might go in that direction.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38892: Jul 23rd 2015 at 3:20:10 PM

It's a fair criticism. I was thinking that when I was watching Ant-Man, that of course he's going to fight a shrinking guy by the end of the film because that's how these movies work. I didn't hold it against the movie though, because again, that's just how these movies are done it seems.

To be fair, it's not just Marvel doing it. Man of Steel put Superman against another Kryptonian with Superman powers. The Dark Knight trilogy had Batman going up against the man who taught him to be Batman in the first movie and the successor to the guy who taught him to be Batman in the third. It's become a staple of superhero films.

But it's getting old.

edited 23rd Jul '15 3:21:39 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38893: Jul 23rd 2015 at 3:21:05 PM

That's a fair point, it never hurts to have the heroes and villains use different powers from each other.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38894: Jul 23rd 2015 at 3:21:45 PM

To be fair, Iron Man 3 had a bad guy with way different powers than Iron Man.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38895: Jul 23rd 2015 at 3:21:50 PM

[up][up] Yeah. And now that Marvel has this big shared universe, it's gotten a lot easier to justify Captain America fighting Doc Ock, Thor fighting Crimson Dynamo, Iron Man fighting Absorbing Man, etc. within an audience's suspension of disbelief. They know all this shit exists in the same world, so we don't need to bubble our heroes away each non-crossover movie.

edited 23rd Jul '15 3:22:06 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38896: Jul 23rd 2015 at 3:25:04 PM

Yeah, but it is kind of a rite of initiation to first go up against someone who is the negative version of the hero. Cap had Red Scull, Iron Man had Iron Monger, Hulk had the Abnormination, so Ant-man gets Yellowjacket.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38897: Jul 23rd 2015 at 3:27:39 PM

Egh, whatever.

edited 23rd Jul '15 3:28:35 PM by VeryMelon

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#38898: Jul 23rd 2015 at 3:31:44 PM

Hank isn't the hero of the movie. Scott is. He's also the protagonist, but those are two different things.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#38899: Jul 23rd 2015 at 3:33:20 PM

So if Black Widow gets a movie, should she not go up against Yelena Belova?

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#38900: Jul 23rd 2015 at 3:34:36 PM

Yelena Belova would be a great villain for Natasha, if that were to happen.


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