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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38826: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:47:53 AM

......

We're all doomed.

One Strip! One Strip!
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38827: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:54:42 AM

You know what I find hilarious? Spashthedragon is essentially making an argument the Marvel Cinematic Universe is morally less grey than the possibly upcoming DC Cinematic one.... when really, it tends to be the reverse with their comic book counterparts^^ Oh the irony.

Heh, yeah, I hadn't noticed that.

I think what happend is that the MCU already called dibs on the lighthearted Black-and-White Morality tone, so DC had to pick the serious Black-and-Gray Morality tone just to be different.

Yes we are invited to root for the heroes, but that doesn't mean that they aren't supposed to be flawed.

Yes, the heroes have flaws, but they're never flaws that really seem consequential in any meaningful way. Tony especially is the worst offender. He's got the biggest list of flaws out of anybody, but he still drove off into the sunset at the end of Age of Ultron like nothing happened. Now, maybe Civil War will elaborate on his character to the point that I feel satisfied with it, I don't know, but looking at Age of Ultron as a standalone story, Tony's flaws were nothing but a cheap excuse to create a world-threatening villain.

(Okay, to be fair, if the writers REALLY wanted to go for Black-and-White Morality, they could've made the villain NOT be created by the heroes. But I still had issues with Tony creating Ultron for reasons not related to Black-and-White Morality. That's a topic for another day, though.)

It's only after her brother dies in a Heroic Sacrifice and she suffers from that loss (which she is partially responsible for) that she gets to be a member of the new Avengers.

I was under the impression that Scarlet Witch still would've been allowed to be an Avenger had Quicksilver survived. Pretty sure she had that "step out the door and you're an Avenger" conversation with Hawkeye BEFORE Pietro died.

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:56:20 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38828: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:54:45 AM

Experimentation has taught me that there has to be a foldercontrol on forum posts or folder formatting gets all screwed up. Like on the previous page: because there wasn't a foldercontrol on Wack'd's post, if you click on the folder from alliterator's post, it opens and closes Wack'd's folder instead; you have to click the foldercontrol to open both folders.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38829: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:56:55 AM

I was under the impression that Scarlet Witch still would've been allowed to be an Avenger had Quicksilver survived. Pretty sure she had that "step out the door and you're an Avenger" conversation with Hawkeye BEFORE Pietro died.

That was just Hawkeye. I'm pretty sure Hawkeye doesn't control who gets to be in the Avengers. Plus, he was trying to give her a pep talk.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38830: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:59:06 AM

[up]Okay, but the movie never says, "Your brother died and we feel bad for you, so here's an Avengers ID card!" Really, the whole situation is pretty vague. Almost like they had to rush the ending to accommodate the ten billion loose plot threads the movie had left or something.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38831: Jul 23rd 2015 at 10:04:32 AM

[up] I mean, it skips from Sokovia to, like, a few months later, maybe? So yes, the ending is kind of rushed (I believe even Joss said that he wished he gave the movie more time to breathe). But we can pretty much infer that what she did during the Sokovian Ultron invasion (and the loss of her brother) pretty much redeemed her in their eyes (...probably not in Bruce's eyes, but he wasn't around anymore).

edited 23rd Jul '15 10:05:29 AM by alliterator

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38832: Jul 23rd 2015 at 10:07:26 AM

[up]Which just leads into another problem with MCU movies, where they think it's okay to half-ass plot points because, "Eh, we'll address it in the sequel."

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38833: Jul 23rd 2015 at 10:14:41 AM

[up] I don't think that's why Joss rushed the ending (he was pretty adamant about the movie being self-contained). I think he wanted it to be just as short as the first film, but didn't realize that the complexity of the film required more time. And by the time he realized that it was rushed, it was already too late to change it.

There's probably deleted scenes that we'll see on the Blu-ray that have more Wanda stuff in them.

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#38834: Jul 23rd 2015 at 10:35:01 AM

[up]Tony's actions were discussed off offscreen in WHIH, a newly made media station canon to the MCU. Governments are aware of the Avenger's actions, but in the process of planning something. Right now it's N/A because bringing them down to the level of the law is harder than you can imagine.

Meanwhile, Tony left the Avengers because one he has a life outside the team, two that life becomes jeopardized by the Avengers, and three leaving would help lessen the blame because he was mainly responsible for Ultron. Also Tony has a hard time accounting for his own actions when he sees them as the best and only necessity for Earth, but guilt can easily eat him away. Each film already proved the latter. Civil War takes up a notch. Currently, Tony is trying to boost his PR status based on WHIH, doing some good that is irrelevant from creating more weapons

edited 23rd Jul '15 10:43:44 AM by xbimpy

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38835: Jul 23rd 2015 at 10:49:52 AM

Right, but that's an All There in the Manual stuff, it's not within the actual movie.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#38836: Jul 23rd 2015 at 11:03:28 AM

I have to say on the whole I really can't think of any MCU heroes being truly grey (with the possible exception of Daredevil if he counts.) I mean, there have been plenty who have been portrayed as kind of jerky to various degrees (Fury, Stark, any GOTG who wasn't a tree-man, and Pym all spring to mind) and a few who have done things that are certainly illegal/immoral but for a good cause (Lang's robin hooding for example) but the good guys are good guys, the bad guys are bad. And really, I am alright with that.

Even Loki has been consistently portrayed as sympathetic but WRONG. (He now has a high-double digit personal body-count in addition to all the deaths as a result of his schemes.) If he wasn't so darn pretty he'd probably be seen as monstrous as Red Skull instead of a poor mistreated little chick.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38837: Jul 23rd 2015 at 11:29:12 AM

(he was pretty adamant about the movie being self-contained)

Well, then, he screwed up royally because Age of Ultron is most definitely NOT self-contained. You at least need to watch Winter Soldier to understand what the heck's going on within the first few minutes.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38838: Jul 23rd 2015 at 11:32:36 AM

Self-contained in that every plot point brought up in the film is resolved in the film. He didn't want to pull an Empire Strikes Back, is what I'm saying.

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#38839: Jul 23rd 2015 at 11:33:54 AM

What do you make of the twitter feed from a supposed Russo Brother's account. https://twitter.com/Russo_Brothers

spiderman, dr strange, or black panther costume?

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#38840: Jul 23rd 2015 at 11:37:44 AM

If you ever interpret events in such a way that makes the heroes look completely unsympathetic, you're not doing what the writers intended, which means for the purposes of the greater narrative, you're just wrong.

I know this is old and i haven't seen ant man yet (about to), but being a writer is about communicating ideas to other people. if you meant for your hero to be likable but he's actually completely unsympathetic, that doesn't mean the audience is wrong, it means that the writer failed in getting their ideas across.

things like morality are not determined by the author, they exist independently because we can judge characters and actions for ourselves.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38841: Jul 23rd 2015 at 11:39:08 AM

[up] And sometimes it's just plain wrong from the writer's perspective, too - there are times when Tony is meant to be unsympathetic (especially in Iron Man 2 during his bender).

edited 23rd Jul '15 11:39:17 AM by alliterator

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#38842: Jul 23rd 2015 at 11:51:24 AM

[up]It's not in Ant Man because that movie was not dealing with Age of Ultron's external consequences (the damage). At least, Hank Pym acknowledged the Avengers aren't as awesome as the general public first considered them once Tony Stark did something stupid AGAIN. Doesn't help they are now pretty hostile against people peeping on their territory as seen with Scott vs Sam. On the other hand, Marvel just used Battle of New York to justify the state of Hell's Kitchen. Oh people are aware of what goes on out there and they are taking advantage. Some are even buying and selling left overs from Slovakia. It's not shown more times than not for the sliver screen, but at least in canon it happened. Who knows. With Ward "running" whatever is left of Hydra then perhaps we would see a connection to these black market deals. If you want the direct effect, superhero registration, to Tony's cause, a history of doing "bad" things then you have to wait a year. Right now, like I said earlier and just like Maria Hill told the Avengers, governments are thinking about what to do. Yeah I agree showing it carriers more weight than exposition though neither matters at this moment someone as stubborn as Captain America finally agrees to listen and in order for that to happen there needs to be an entire story dedicated for it lol

edited 23rd Jul '15 11:56:55 AM by xbimpy

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38843: Jul 23rd 2015 at 11:55:16 AM

[up][up][up]Except the situation is more ambiguous than that. Characters like Hank Pym or Wanda are only unsympathetic when the consequences of their actions are explored at length, and the MCU simply doesn't do that. You can argue until you're blue in the face that the Avengers are the bad guys, but you'd still be wrong for the purposes of the greater narrative. By which I mean, the Avengers are always going to be treated like heroes by the story (unless they pull a Heel–Face Turn, in which case the story will make it explicitly clear that they've turned evil).

So even if somebody decides Hank Pym is a bad person, Ant-Man 2 will most likely continue to treat him as if he's a good person. So the person saying Hank Pym is evil is "wrong" in the context of the narrative, but not necessarily by the standards of real-life morality.

[up][up]Even when he's acting like a jerk in Iron Man 2, the audience is supposed to still be rooting for him. Part of the point of Iron Man is that he's a jerk and you're supposed to be emotionally invested in watching him better himself as a person. If Tony was really unsymptatheic in Iron Man 2, we'd all have been expected to root for Hammer and Whiplash to take over his company or whatever.

edited 23rd Jul '15 11:58:20 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38844: Jul 23rd 2015 at 11:57:48 AM

[up] I don't think it's as simple as the narrative treating them as "heroes" or "villains." I think the narrative treats them as people who sometimes make mistakes and try to act heroic.

Even when he's acting like a jerk in Iron Man 2, the audience is supposed to still be rooting for him. Part of the point of Iron Man is that he's a jerk and you're supposed to be emotionally invested in watching him better himself as a person. If Tony was really unsympathetic in Iron Man 2, we'd all have been expected to root for Hammer and Whiplash to take over his company or whatever.

What? No, we aren't supposed to be rooting for Tony when he is drunk in his suit. We are actually supposed to be rooting for Rhodey.

edited 23rd Jul '15 11:58:54 AM by alliterator

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38845: Jul 23rd 2015 at 11:59:01 AM

[up]A person who constantly acts heroic is a hero.

And I mean we're supposed to be rooting for Tony to become a better person. They're showing Tony acting like a jerk because we're supposed to want to see him stop acting like a jerk.

edited 23rd Jul '15 12:00:16 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38846: Jul 23rd 2015 at 12:00:09 PM

[up] I didn't say they "constantly act heroic," I say they try to act heroic. Big difference there. I don't think anyone thinks Tony was heroic in creating Ultron, even though he was trying to be heroic in creating a suit of armor for the world.

And I mean we're supposed to be rooting for Tony to become a better person. They're showing Tony acting like a jerk because we're supposed to want to see him stop acting like a jerk.

We want to see him stop acting like a jerk, but we're not rooting for him at that moment. We're rooting for Rhodey at that moment. Once Tony gets his shit together, then we root for him.

edited 23rd Jul '15 12:01:53 PM by alliterator

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38847: Jul 23rd 2015 at 12:01:31 PM

[up]In this particular instance, that's really more of a semantics difference. I really don't think you could argue the MCU protagonists aren't heroes, anyways. Even if they have flaws, they're all heroes at the end of the day. They save the world from getting destroyed and stuff.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38848: Jul 23rd 2015 at 12:03:20 PM

[up] There's a pretty big difference between "saving the world heroes" and "never do anything wrong heroes." You are conflating the two — saying that because they are heroes (they save the world), they are also perfect (they have no flaws).

You are basically saying "Because they saved the world and acted heroic, they are heroic all the time and can do no wrong in the eyes of the narrative." Which, you know, is wrong.

edited 23rd Jul '15 12:04:08 PM by alliterator

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#38849: Jul 23rd 2015 at 12:08:00 PM

But saving the world is the duty of superheros. To resolve the conflict through boom, bang and pow. The protagonist of the MCU are not prefect and that makes them worth watching because they are motivated to reach perfection even if it becomes a fake concept that needs a slap in the face by the rest of reality. They wear a blanket of safety that has the possibility of being yanked away. It makes them a bit ambiguous rather than "saving the world is the right thing", which would be just a projection of our own ethics. I think we are meant to root for Tony so he can learn from acting rashly or Steve so he can come to terms with modern day America. However, like Kevin said the films will not go further into any dark areas, such as Steve killing the President because he dislikes the polices. A complete face turn hell nah. These are characters who are trying to become Capes and won't stop trying and the general public sees it also. But their past actions are never going to disappear, which the general public also remembers. The movies really never dabbled on the latter until recently. I dunno probally it will increase

edited 23rd Jul '15 12:23:52 PM by xbimpy

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38850: Jul 23rd 2015 at 12:08:23 PM

[up][up]I'm not saying they can't do wrong. I'm saying they don't do wrong. The writers just tend not to write them as having any meaningful, consequential flaws (except Tony probably once Civil War comes out, seeing as he'll be an antagonist in that movie).

I mean, yeah, the heroes all have flaws. But they're flaws that don't actually prevent them from being heroic as far as the narrative is concerned. Got G is a good example. We never see Rocket or Star-Lord do anything really unsympathetic, like, say, killing a guy in cold blood or something.

He didn't want to pull an Empire Strikes Back, is what I'm saying

Actually, I think that would've greatly improved the movie considering how stupidly rushed the plot was.

edited 23rd Jul '15 12:13:03 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.

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