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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#38801: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:13:47 AM

I don't see why Spider-Man can't have that subplot. Not that I think it will, I just don't see why not.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38802: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:15:14 AM

[up]x4 Well, I got all bent out of shape about the morality of characters in Age of Ultron and how it hampered the overall narrative, and it was the most unrewarding experience ever. I got all my friends mad at me for having the gall to dislike the fun popcorn flick, and it basically made me decide that the MCU movies are a piece of media where it's much more enjoyable to just not think about this kinda stuff too hard. Obsessing over details like this is only going to expose a certain amount of apathy on the writers' part.

(Granted, Ant-Man is a way better movie than Age of Ultron could ever have been, but that doesn't mean the writers thought any harder about the realistic ramifications of Hank Pym's actions.)

I mean, you're welcome to analyze the MCU movies as much as you like. I just think this particular discussion will be boring and unrewarding, that's all.

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:16:11 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#38803: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:17:31 AM

Drinking coffee, the evil way.

Doc Ock had better be in the MCU.

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:18:12 AM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38804: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:18:42 AM

Well, I got all bent out of shape about the morality of characters in Age of Ultron and how it hampered the overall narrative, and it was the most unrewarding experience ever.

So your issue was that you didn't like the "morality" of Age of Ultron and so now believe all the protagonists are supposed to be paragons of goodness?

...that doesn't really make any sense. Only Cap is really presented as a paragon and even then he has issues. I mean, the morality of AOU is incredibly complex at times and both Tony and Steve had good and bad points and ultimately, the entire conversation is stopped because of a Deus Ex Machina (the Vision), but still: you can't look at the movie and say all the characters are paragons of virtue and goodness. Hell, the movie doesn't even see them as that.

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#38805: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:20:47 AM

[up][up][up]Well, you don't need to participate in the discussion if you don't find it rewarding.

Also, I think I might've preferred Age of Ultron? I mean, other MCU movies were better than Age of Ultron, but I think I might have had enjoyed AOU better.

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:21:01 AM by Victin

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38806: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:24:42 AM

So your issue was that you didn't like the "morality" of Age of Ultron and so now believe all the protagonists are supposed to be paragons of goodness?

No, what I'm saying is, the story doesn't treat Tony or Wanda or Hank Pym as if they are bad guys, which I take as a sign the writers don't intend for them to be bad guys, which means when I interpret things as, "Wanda brainwashed the Hulk and sicced him on a city! What a horrible thing to do! She belongs in prison," I'm interpreting the story the wrong way (That is, if you think the writer's intent is an important factor of the story in the first place). The writers would rather I not think about the realistic consequences of Wanda brainwashing Hulk because to them, that was nothing but an excuse to have an Iron Man vs Hulk fight. It was just a set piece, not character development.

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:28:49 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#38807: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:27:56 AM

Just because that specific event wasn't supposed to be questioned, because it was in the script due to Rule of Cool, doesn't mean everything else isn't to be taken in account. Not saying I agree with you, though. I think all of this "unquestioned morality" is going to crash under its own weight with Civil War. I dunno enough about the comics themselves to say anything, however.

Now I'm wondering if I truly think AOU was better than AM and why...

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#38808: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:28:07 AM

[up] But Bruce is very angry at her later - angry enough to kill her. Whether there are appropriate consequences or not, the writers still brought it up.

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:28:40 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38810: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:29:26 AM

And even if you do subscribe to Death of the Author and think, "Okay, well, the story doesn't treat them like bad guys, but they're still bad people," it probably doesn't matter because the sequels will most likely continue to treat them them like good guys. I seriously doubt the fact that Wanda brainwashed Hulk is going to become much of a big deal, the same way the Chitauri invasion has basically been swept under the rug at this point. And if they did devote a long subplot to Wanda angsting over the bad things she did, it'd just cramp up a narrative that's already way overstuffed with other things going in.

[up][up]Still wasn't explored adequately in my opinion, and probably never will be.

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:31:17 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38811: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:30:04 AM

No, what I'm saying is, the story doesn't treat Tony or Wanda or Hank Pym as if they are bad guys

It's pretty clear that even though the movie doesn't treat them like villains, it doesn't treat them as being in the right either. Wanda was an outright villain in the first half of AOU and when she did come around, Bruce threatened to kill her (and as the audience knows Bruce better than her, we're more sympathetic towards him). Wanda is only really redeemed from her evil actions at the end of the film when she suffers from the loss of her brother and then kills the Prime Ultron.

(You may not think she is redeemed, but that's the narrative arc. It isn't that she's not the bad guy, it's that she's a bad guy who comes around to being a good guy. You say she doesn't suffer any consequences, but the death of her brother is a big consequence of her deciding to work for Ultron.)

Tony Stark's consequences are still forthcoming in Civil War (and he was called out it greatly in AOU by Cap). And Pym was never shown as a bad guy, just an absentee father and kind of a dick.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38812: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:34:07 AM

[up]Oh, whoops, I should have specified, I meant Wanda post-Heel–Face Turn. Basically, Quciksilver and Scarlet Witch start the movie as bad guys, then Wanda reads Ultron's mind and realizes he's evil, so Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver become good guys. Still reeks of Black-and-White Morality to me.

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38813: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:35:13 AM

You know what I find hilarious? Spashthedragon is essentially making an argument the Marvel Cinematic Universe is morally less grey than the possibly upcoming DC Cinematic one.... when really, it tends to be the reverse with their comic book counterparts^^ Oh the irony.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38814: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:35:15 AM

Wanda made a pretty horrific mistake (she's just as responsible for Ultron and the Hulk's rampage as Tony and Bruce are, and she fucking knows it), and paid for it with the loss of both her home and her brother.

Hank made a lot of screw-ups to reach the point he did (where his plan fell apart right from the get-go without him even knowing it because of those mistakes). While Scott worked out in the end, if they had used Hope, they could have done the job well before Cross got as close as he did. There's no denying that.

Of course, considering how good Hope was, and considering how he said Janet was born to it, my previous theory of Hank seeing too much of her mother in Hope (and thus feeding his fear of her getting hurt) likely played a big part in his not wanting to use her. He should have done a better job in explaining that.

Hell, even the fact that Cross had the company was because of his shitty parenting. But ultimately, he wanted to prevent Pam particles from being misused and people from getting hurt.

Remember, for all her anger at him, Hope agreed with him and worked with him to stop that, because just using Sheep instead of Mice is likely not the only Cuckoo for Cocoa puffs moment the dude had. She did work with him all the time. In fact, it's entirely possible that she was the one who filled in Hank on Cross's crazier moments.

One Strip! One Strip!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38815: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:35:48 AM

Because the story doesn't really work in black or white. It works in black and grey. Yes we are invited to root for the heroes, but that doesn't mean that they aren't supposed to be flawed. It's the villains who (with the possible exception of Loki and Nebula) end up firmly on the "bad" side. But even that has a purpose. You have always the flawed being which is contrasted which what could happen if he succumbs to his flaws. Just like Steve wanted the Superhero serum for the right reasons, Red Skull wanted it for the wrong ones and paid for it. Tony made weapons which had long-reaching consequences, but he never did it out of greed like Stane.

The villains in Marvel movies are often the extreme version of what the hero could become if he doesn't pay attention. Fury could easily become Alexander Pierce if he doesn't pay attention. And Ultron is basically the physical representation of Tony's most negative sides.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#38816: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:36:14 AM

I don't think I'd call it black and white since they were never truly evil in my mind. Having said that I will be disappointed if Wanda doesn't treat the chaos she caused as something she needs to atone for.

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:37:18 AM by Kostya

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38817: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:38:00 AM

Sorry if you people are tired of this coversation, but I watched the movie yesterday, and there's probably many people who haven't watched it yet and thus haven't had this conversation with anyone.

It's not your fault. I and a few others saw the movie opening night and managed to have about two months' worth of argument as a result, so I think some of us have forgotten how recent the movie actually is.

It's pretty clear that even though the movie doesn't treat them like villains, it doesn't treat them as being in the right either. Wanda was an outright villain in the first half of AOU and when she did come around, Bruce threatened to kill her (and as the audience knows Bruce better than her, we're more sympathetic towards him). Wanda is only really redeemed from her evil actions at the end of the film when she suffers from the loss of her brother and then kills the Prime Ultron.

(You may not think she is redeemed, but that's the narrative arc. It isn't that she's not the bad guy, it's that she's a bad guy who comes around to being a good guy. You say she doesn't suffer any consequences, but the death of her brother is a big consequence of her deciding to work for Ultron.)

Tony Stark's consequences are still forthcoming in Civil War (and he was called out it greatly in AOU by Cap). And Pym was never shown as a bad guy, just an absentee father and kind of a dick.

The movie does sort of treat Tony as being in the right. There's strong implications that Ultron wasn't really his fault, and when he gets a chance to give it a second go without the interference from the Mind Gem's AI, it results in Vision, who proceeds to give Tony a pat on the back, disprove all of Steve's concerns, and help save the world from Ultron.

Thor winds up being he deciding vote between Tony and Steve, and he votes unambiguously in Tony's favor, and then everyone lives happily ever after. So rather than Ultron being presented as a consequence of Tony's hubris, the message becomes, "Tony's suit of armor around the world was a super-great idea and only misfired because of circumstances beyond his control."

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:41:13 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38818: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:39:21 AM

Definitely.

It's funny. Because of what she saw in Tony's mind, Wanda is probably the person who best understands his motives for the upcoming Civil War.

Be interesting to see what she has to say. Maybe she will even try to talk him down, having put aside her grudge against him.

One Strip! One Strip!
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38819: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:40:44 AM

Oh, whoops, I should have specified, I meant Wanda post-Heel-Face Turn. Basically, Quciksilver and Scarlet Witch start the movie as bad guys, then Wanda reads Ultron's mind and realizes he's evil, so Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver become good guys.

But, again, they aren't immediately forgiven: Bruce grabs Wanda and threatens to kill her for what she did to him. It's only after her brother dies in a Heroic Sacrifice and she suffers from that loss (which she is partially responsible for) that she gets to be a member of the new Avengers.

Also, I have a feeling that Civil War may pick on those threads as well - Scarlet Witch is in it and, even if it's a cameo, people may ask why the Avengers includes a criminal among their ranks.

Thor winds up being he deciding vote on whether Vision is a good idea, and he votes unambiguously in Tony's favor, and then everyone lives happily ever after. So rather than Ultron being presented as a consequence of Tony's hubris, the message becomes, "Tony's suit of armor around the world was a super-great idea and only misfired because of circumstances beyond his control."

No, Thor only votes in favor of creating Vision because Thor himself contributed to his creation with the lightning. Without Thor, the Vision would never have been created. I mean, Thor was completely pissed at Tony earlier, but at the end, he knew that only the Vision with the Mind Stone could stop Ultron, so he helped create him.

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:42:24 AM by alliterator

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#38820: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:41:05 AM

[up]x4 Oh, I definitely think Wanda needs to atone for what she did, but where exactly are they going to explore that idea? A throwaway line in Civil War or Infinity War isn't gonna cut it, and those movies really don't need an extra subplot to clutter things up.

What I think the MCU movies need right now is a Scarlet Witch standalone movie, a Black Widow standalone movie, another Hulk standalone movie, and a mention of Ultron and all the destruction he caused in the TV shows (like how Daredevil handled the Chitauri invasion). That's the only way all the little kinks from Age of Ultron could ever be thoroughly ironed out, in my opinion.

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:43:25 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#38821: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:41:59 AM

Question: Can you make folders in posts here in the forums?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38823: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:44:29 AM

Holy crap, that's a thing you can do?

Excuse me while I—you know what, this is not the place for experimenting. To the Sandbox!

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#38824: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:45:53 AM

Time to figure out how for my massive post before I go on my vacation.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38825: Jul 23rd 2015 at 9:47:00 AM

    open/close all folders 

    Long Rant about Age of Ultron 
Yeah, I liked it.

edited 23rd Jul '15 9:48:28 AM by alliterator


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