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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Regarding Cap blowing up the Helicarriers and Triskelion:
First, he didn't blow up the Triskelion. The Triskelion was damaged by having a Helicarrier crash into it as they were falling out of the sky. It was crushed, not blown up.
Second, it's not a fair assumption to assume that lots of people on the Helicarriers were loyal S.H.I.E.L.D. agents. The Helicarriers weren't even supposed to launch yet; they were pre-emptively launched by Hydra because of Cap's speech, and we see Hydra agents shoot their way onboard. The only people operating these vessels were Hydra soldiers who had already murdered anyone standing between them and the controls.
Third, as previously discussed, the Helicarriers were pointing guns at millions of innocent people. Cross Industries wasn't. The only urgency to the Cross bombing is the fact that an arms deal is about to take place which might threaten some lives down the road if not stopped from transpiring, and the only reason it even got that far is because Pym wasted so much time recruiting and then teaching Scott how to use the suit Hope was already super-familiar with, allowing Cross to delivery a preliminary presentation announcing the project, finish his research, and then make arrangements for the final presentation. Pym manufactured his own urgency, and what urgency he was able to produce still wasn't enough to justify his response.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Tobias, I think by now, most people don't care. Pym actually shrunk the explosion so that there wouldn't be any collateral damage (I read an article that pointed that out) and made sure that there was nobody inside (we see Luis pulling out a security guard and the everyone else is out of the building once Hank and Hope come out in the tank). So, basically, Hank destroyed an empty building because he knew that Cross, if he escaped, would still use the technology inside and sell it to the highest bidder.
There, can we move on now?
Thank you alliterator^^
Anyway, talking about moving on: what do you guys think we should expect from the Captain Marvel movie? What would it be about? How would they portray Carol Danvers?
As for Civil War to be frank I am wondering. I am especially curious about the ending: will they end with Cap beating the crap out of Tony? Or will they do something so the conflict end with everyone finding a peaceful resolution?
edited 23rd Jul '15 8:36:37 AM by Theokal3
If people didn't care, there wouldn't have been a conversation to respond to.
Fact is, the film's been out for less than a week. There are a lot of people who haven't seen it, and many of those people are going to come in here with reactions, just as Victin did. And the conversation will begin anew every time someone enters with a less than positive response to the film.
So in saying, "Can we move on," you're asking me to step back and let you dogpile on anyone who shares my opinion. We're up to two people unimpressed. Don't expect us to be the last, and don't be surprised if people who haven't seen the film yet aren't following the discussion that's already taken place.
edited 23rd Jul '15 8:37:52 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I honestly have no idea why people are even bothering to discuss this. There's no such thing as moral ambiguity in the MCU movies. The good guys are good and the bad guys are bad. The writers obviously don't want you to ever think Hank Pym or Captain America or even Star-Lord are bad people. If you ever interpret events in such a way that makes the heroes look completely unsympathetic, you're not doing what the writers intended, which means for the purposes of the greater narrative, you're just wrong.
Captain America jumped on a grenade. That was the writers' way of showing the audience that Cap is Incorruptible Pure Pureness who will be a good guy forever. Darren Cross turned people into goo at the slightest provocation. That's the writers' way of showing he's a Card-Carrying Villain who wakes up every morning and puts evil cream in his evil coffee while he plots how to destroy the world.
Now, is this dynamic a bad thing? No. I actually think it's incredibly entertaining, like Marvel decided to film a bunch of super high quality Saturday morning cartoons. But it doesn't lend itself to a great deal of character depth. A MCU movie's never, ever, ever going to make me think or change my greater perspective on the world. And on the rare occassion that the movie tries to make me think like Age of Ultron did, it just turns into a trainwreck since there's not enough time for an adequate discussion of the worth of humanity in a movie about superheroes bashing in an army of robots.
MCU movies are the potato chips of cinema. And, again, that's not a bad thing, but it makes these arguments about whether Hank Pym is a good or a bad guy really, really tedious.
Yes, Hank Pym is a good guy, end of story. Unless the writers ever decide to have him kill an innocent puppy or something, in which case, then he'll be a bad guy.
Heck, I wouldn't bat an eyelash if Civil War ends with Tony realizing he's wrong, and then he high-fives Cap so they can team up for Infinity War, because Robert Downy Jr just makes way too much money to not be in that movie, so he obviously can't do anything that evil in Civil War.
(Also, note that I specified movies. The Daredevil TV show got pretty darn morally ambiguous. But what works for a Daredevil TV show doesn't necessarily work for Ant-Man or any other hugely popular mainstream Marvel movie.)
edited 23rd Jul '15 8:44:01 AM by spashthebandragon
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.Tobias has got a point.
This one may go on a while, and will probably keep coming up again.
I think the best thing we can do is let both sides present their points, and call it a day most of the time.
One Strip! One Strip!![]()
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No offense Tobias Drake, but that was an incredibly pretentious accusation.
edited 23rd Jul '15 8:41:29 AM by Theokal3
I always thought that was darkly hilarious. It's like "Fuck, this human just could not get his shit together. Why the hell does he have to be one of the important ones?"
I actually think that Cap 3 will end with the beginning of Civil War. It will show how the situation becomes more and more volatile, until there is the big clash in the end which, this time around, is not solved by the end of the movie. Instead it will impact the whole MCU...at least until Infinity War I, in which the heroes are forced to come together again.
Either that or it ends with Cap getting killed....But I like option one better. Civil war is a too big event to deal with in one movie, especially if the actual heart of it is supposed to be Steve trying to help Bucky.
(And can't we wait for the ant-man discussion for a while? At least until the movie is out in all countries? Discussions under Spoiler tags are annoying and it is way too early to remove them).
edited 23rd Jul '15 8:43:30 AM by Swanpride
@Rob: That's kinda my take at this point. I've already said my piece, so unless something new gets brought up there's really nothing else for me to say.
And then they put their fingers in the coffee powder WITHOUT WASHING THEIR HANDS CUZ THEY'RE EVIL!
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.I honestly have no idea why people are even bothering to discuss this. There's no such thing as moral ambiguity in the MCU movies.
[insert "Not Sure If Joking" picture here]
Ooookay. Yes, most of the villains are died-in-the-wool evil (hell, Ronan bathed in the blood of his enemies and the Red Skull was too evil for Hitler), but of the heroes, I'd say only Captain America is that "pure hero" character.
The rest have various shades of moral ambiguity:
- Iron Man tried to create a "suit of armor around the world" and fucked it up completely. And then, he tried it again, only this time it worked (although not through anything he did, but rather Thor).
- Bruce Banner has rage issues (I mean, he once threatened to kill Wanda for what she did to him — I'm pretty sure "pure heroes" don't do that).
- Black Widow was an assassin in the past (she has a lot of "red in her ledger") and is used to killing people.
- Hawkeye...okay, Hawkeye is pretty normal.
Oh, and Pym isn't a pure hero in any case. Again, it would have been much quicker if he had taken all his evidence to the Avengers, but he was so paranoid about Stark stealing his technology, that he couldn't do that. He is much like Stark in that regard.
edited 23rd Jul '15 8:52:52 AM by alliterator
Doesn't matter, all those characters are still indisputably good guys as far as the narrative is concerned. Even when they do unsympathetic things, they suffer somewhere around zero long-term consequences for them. Age of Ultron should've ended with Tony and Wanda going to jail, but instead they're allowed to keep being Avengers like nothing happened.
This isn't Batman v Superman, this is the Marvel Cinematic Universe. There are no real consequences. There's no such thing as moral ambiguity here (except in the TV shows).
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.Even Cap isn't completely squeaky clean; he's a winter soldier, a man without a war to fight but who doesn't know how to do anything else, a soldier incapable of ever truly coming home because being a soldier - in spirit, not necessarily in letter - has come to define his entire identity.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Yeah, but that's just an interpretation made up the audience, not an explicit part of his characterization. Cap is a good guy. Sometimes when there are no bad guys to fight, he gets restless because literally his only reason for existing is fighting bad guys. It's not even shown to be a negative character trait, just a character trait.
If anything, the fact that Cap feels that way makes him even more heroic. "Look how selfless Cap is, even when the war's over, he's always on high alert for bad guys! Oh, look, Hydra's still around! Guess Cap was totally 100% justified!"
edited 23rd Jul '15 9:03:17 AM by spashthebandragon
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.Sorry if you people are tired of this coversation, but I watched the movie yesterday, and there's probably many people who haven't watched it yet and thus haven't had this conversation with anyone. I still haven't come to see many arguments against my opinion, at least not as many as there apparently were in the discussion with Tobias.
@spashthebanddragon: I can buy it that Scott is a good guy, no questions asked. I can't do the same for Pym, because half of the movie's arc was him getting over his family issues and opening to his daughter about it. He was being a jerk about it, for fatherly reasons, but still a jerk. Besides, I already complained Darren turning a guy into goop was the writers trying very hard to make him look "evil", that is, saturday morning cartoon evil scientist. Here
, if you want to check. Might've worked for you, but not for me. And why would the author's opinion limit my own opinion, by the way?
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It's not that you're not allowed to debate the moral grounds of Hank Pym. It's just that it's a totally worthless thing to be worrying about in my opinion. The MCU movies are potato chips, and you're arguing about the exact salt content in one of those chips and how it ruins the overall quality of this one, single potato chip. Like, why are you even bothering?
Yes, but so far the writers haven't written him this way. Cap was totaly justified since Hydra was still around so he shouldn't have stopped fighting a war.
edited 23rd Jul '15 9:05:54 AM by spashthebandragon
I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
x12 Problem is none of the movies between CW and IW will be the type of movies where they would go into that stuff.
- Strange doesn't have an identity or has had any devastating adventures yet
- Gotg vol2 is in space
- Ragnarok will most likely not feature Earth that much aside from the usual "time to get Jane and the others involved!"
- Spider-Man might but he's a teen and the movie will have to establish his cast of characters and won't have time for a sub plot about Tony trying to capture him if they want to also have the usual Marvel sub plots. Him showing up in CW would be enough
The way I see it, CW will be hijacked by Hydra or some other villains towards the end and the movie will end with the heroes being on strained terms with the others but not to the level that Tony will show up in Asgard and try to bring Thor in for not coming to a hearing.
edited 23rd Jul '15 9:31:36 AM by LordofLore
Doesn't matter, all those characters are still indisputably good guys as far as the narrative is concerned. Even when they do unsympathetic things, they suffer somewhere around zero long-term consequences for them.
I'm pretty sure Civil War is exploring the long-term consequences of Tony Stark's actions. I mean, he made Ultron and Ultron dropped a city out of the sky and there have already been rumblings from other countries about blaming the Avengers. Sure, nobody arrests Tony Stark, but...why would they?
As for them all being "good guys" — you do know that you can be a good guy and morally ambiguous, right? I mean, that's Black Widow's whole thing. She's a morally ambiguous good guy. She's like Parker from Leverage only more assassin-y.
Also, the fact that some of the characters don't get long term consequences doesn't change the fact that they are being morally ambiguous. That's just the nature of superheroes and comic books. You're basically trying to argue, "Oh, because nobody was arrested, everyone is considered a paragon of goodness." When you know that's not the case.
Yes, but so far the writers haven't written him this way. Cap was totaly justified since Hydra was still around so he shouldn't have stopped fighting a war.
Cap feels completely out of place in the first half of Winter Soldier and it's only when Hydra is revealed that he's more confident. In Age of Ultron, his whole nightmare is about the war ending.
edited 23rd Jul '15 9:15:02 AM by alliterator

Writers STILL love telling Tony he fucked up. I was reading the current Scott Lang Ant Man Run and it had someone go 'Didn't you get Captain America killed?'