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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#38626: Jul 22nd 2015 at 5:50:50 AM

All stories have politics. Pretending they don't just leads you to tell stories with unexamined politics. I mean, "the winter soldier" was one long interrogation of the problems of having covert intelligence agencies and the oversight problems having state assets use force in the shadows causes. And it was a much better story for it. Black Panther has always been heavily about racial politics - its a pretty darn political comic - so really, going "but not too political!" with that particular movie would just be a failure of nerve.

edited 22nd Jul '15 5:51:28 AM by Izeinsummer

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38627: Jul 22nd 2015 at 6:28:17 AM

Here's a fun one: would you rather have Black Panther as a Badass Normal, or with mystical abilities like he is sometimes desicted as? Or Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane?

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#38628: Jul 22nd 2015 at 6:49:24 AM

In regards to the "quality vs. message" discussion I'm with Swanpride and Alley Oop. A movie should obviously be able to handle both, but it's too easy to put all the focus on the message to the detriment of the story itself, and a shitty movie will drag a message down with it no matter how good that message is. Personally, I think the proper ideal would be making quality a slightly higher priority (to ensure the movie doesn't suck) but still have them close to equal.

[up] Badass Normal for me. Black Panther was always like an African Batman, and I wouldn't want to sully it.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#38629: Jul 22nd 2015 at 6:52:03 AM

Bit of column A, columb B. I think I prefer him as a Badass Normal or at least an enhanced human similar to Cap with some blessings from the Panther God that don't need to necessarily manifest as actual powers. Also maybe tone down some of his Mary Tzu tendencies.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#38630: Jul 22nd 2015 at 6:58:01 AM

funny thing about having messages is that a lot of the time they end up being accidental. i've read works that i thought had surprisingly poignant things to say, but the writers in question said it was more of a case of Applicability and they were just trying to tell an entertaining story.

a common problem with writers who have too many pretensions is that the work in question becomes very heavy-handed about what it is trying to say, which cheapens the message. a message only really has any power when it's accompanied by compelling storytelling.

edited 22nd Jul '15 7:01:32 AM by wehrmacht

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#38631: Jul 22nd 2015 at 7:12:40 AM

I think whoever is in charge of Black Panther should try to strive for both. As Duvernay herself said, Marvel's ability to reach a wide audience makes it one of the best mediums for such a statement. But they should put a priority on first developing T'Challa and Wakanda as organic character and country first, before using them as a vehicle for whatever Aesop they intend. Marvel definitely shouldn't try to "reign them in" to avoid upsetting any of the Lowest Common Denominator, but it is within Marvel's right to make them try to stick to the source material.

According to the Russos the parallels between The Winter Soldier and the contemporary PRISM scandal were coincidental as the script had already been finalized a long time ago, and probably drew more inspiration from stories like Psycho-Pass and Minority Report. They probably were trying to make a political statement even before the leaks (granted HYDRA's presence cheapens it a little), but it probably worked as well as it did due to being a byproduct of the story they were trying to tell, rather than the other way around.

edited 22nd Jul '15 7:18:55 AM by AlleyOop

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#38632: Jul 22nd 2015 at 8:18:00 AM

they should put a priority on first developing T'Challa and Wakanda as organic character and country first, before using them as a vehicle for whatever Aesop they intend.

Well, they established Wakanda as a thing as of Age of Ultron, and we already know that Black Panther's showing up in Civil War, so I'd say so far, so good. I guess what's left now is to make both things not sucky and bland in Civil War.

Also, two things I want to bring up:

1. MCU!Spider-Man having organic web-shooters. Yay or nay? I personally say nay, because webs coming straight from the wrist itself? Yeah, I was literally feeling squeamish typing that.

2. Jessica Jones' daddy, Brian Michael Bendis, gives us his thoughts on the upcoming Jessica Jones Netflix series. (He's loving it.)

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38633: Jul 22nd 2015 at 8:22:37 AM

I think it will be a cold day in Hell before Marvel Studios goes with organic webshooters.

Being an intelligent scientist is an important aspect of Peter's character. Several adaptations have missed that aspect, but Marvel Studios has been pretty good at using Adaptation Distillation to get their characters as close to perfect as possible.

edited 22nd Jul '15 8:24:32 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38634: Jul 22nd 2015 at 8:23:27 AM

It's not the first time art imitates real life before real life even happened...especially since the issue is not exactly that new. It has been discussed in movies a couple of times already, but usually from the perspective of the people who are spied on, not from the perspective of the organisation which does the spying. I also think that the basic ideas of the writers is always to contrast Captain America and his ideal with reality. He presents the ideals on which America was founded on, but even in the first movie those ideals clashed with reality. You have those great stage show and then you get the reality of front. And just like the first movie contrasted ideals with reality back then, the second one contrasted ideals with the reality of today. It's a different America, but still far removed from the ideal it wanted to be. The theme is less pronounced in the Avengers movie, because there the focus is more on contrasting Steve's old fashioned beliefs with Tony's modern hedonism, but it is still there.

In any case, I actually see a way bigger problem in the danger of making Wakanda too much of an African cliché. That's a difficult line to walk.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#38635: Jul 22nd 2015 at 8:42:22 AM

i've honestly never had a problem with the organic webshooters.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#38636: Jul 22nd 2015 at 9:29:41 AM

I always kinda liked the organic webshooters. Got no strong opinion on that one.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38637: Jul 22nd 2015 at 9:32:00 AM

The organic webshooters are not a deal-breaker, but I really prefer the mechanic ones. Especially since they allow more story-telling options.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38638: Jul 22nd 2015 at 9:39:24 AM

The mechanical web shooters are physical proof of Peter's science chops.

Sure, even in the Raimi trilogy, he still demonstrated his love of science, but building the web shooters is one example of how good he is at it.

One Strip! One Strip!
xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#38639: Jul 22nd 2015 at 9:45:24 AM

[up] USM 2 is a prefect example of Peter's genius. It was applied to almost everything he did. That needs to happen again

purplefishman Misanthrope Supreme from Ganzir Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Misanthrope Supreme
#38640: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:03:45 AM

I know it's been discussed in the Cut Lex Luthor a Check article itself, but mechanical webshooters actually are a point of Spidey's story I've never bought. "Peter, you live in the same world than Reed Richards, Tony Stark and Hank Pym, all of whom made a crapton of money with their inventions. How are you still broke ?"

Organic webshooters shoot that question right out.

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#38641: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:04:13 AM

hnmmmmm.... does marvel own Namor yet? and if so then they can properly introduce vampires via darkhold. i really want blade but not the generic virus version. then i want ghost rider but how would he work in the mcu

edited 22nd Jul '15 10:04:31 AM by xbimpy

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38642: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:07:50 AM

FUN FACT: In the upcoming relaunch of Amazing Spider-Man, Peter will be turning Parker Industries into a multinational corporation, traveling the globe with his "bodyguard" Spider-Man to oversee his business ventures.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#38643: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:17:06 AM

Is that not just Iron man.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38644: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:19:18 AM

No one owns Namor, so no one can use him in a film.

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#38645: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:24:31 AM

[up][up]They're marketing Iron Man as their "biggest, greatest and most well known hero" in the comics now(it's always been Spider-Man before to the point that their digital comic app has the symbols for the Avengers taking up half their icon and Spider-Man takes up 30% of the rest with Tony getting the last remains and I don't think Tony was even on it a year or two ago) so they had to give his stick to Spider-Man. They also still hasn't given him a new fresh writer!

edited 22nd Jul '15 10:39:26 AM by LordofLore

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#38646: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:33:27 AM

In any case, I actually see a way bigger problem in the danger of making Wakanda too much of an African cliché. That's a difficult line to walk.

I'm concerned about this as well, especially since Wakanda has always had a problem with that - they want them to be established as a modern if not futuristic nation, but they're often based on stereotypes that haven't changed in decades if not centuries.

At worst, everything from their environment to the way they dress to the structure of their society is based on "what the average white person thinks about when they think of Africa," and it can get really stereotypical. I draw the line at them having Zulu shields and spears that shoot lasers.

edited 22nd Jul '15 10:34:40 AM by KnownUnknown

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#38647: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:35:48 AM

Trying to find a good scan of how one of the old comics have shown their cities...

Edit: It's something. I don't read any books with Wakanda at the moment so all my scans will have to be found on the net.

edited 22nd Jul '15 10:36:58 AM by LordofLore

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38648: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:38:18 AM

Is that not just Iron man.

That's totally classic Iron Man.

edited 22nd Jul '15 10:38:26 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38649: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:39:44 AM

Reading the old issues of Christopher Priest's run on Black Panther, Wakanda is technology advanced, but still has a lot of African imagery - i.e. futuristic tanks in the shape of panthers and things like that.

I mean, they may change that. We may not actually see Wakanda in the Black Panther film - they may do the whole "Coming to America" type film, where T'Challa is in America. Priest did something like that, where T'Challa visited America and while he was there, there was a coup in his country, so he couldn't return.

edited 22nd Jul '15 10:39:52 AM by alliterator

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#38650: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:40:07 AM

only thing is "how long is it gonna stick?"

because all things go back to the status quo at some point, so i'm pretty convinced peter is gonna lose his fortune at some point.


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