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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#38526: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:55:27 AM

Yeah.

This comic applies, I think.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38527: Jul 21st 2015 at 12:04:30 PM

May I ask why? What is wrong with adding diversity for the sake of diversity? Why is that a bad thing? If many different types of people can see themselves represented in films, instead of just one type, that is a good thing.

It's a quality over quantity argument, which I've never understood being used against more diversity.

There's always going to be bad, shallow, flat, poorly developed characters. People are people and not everyone is a great writer but in my opinion as far as diversity is concerned that shouldn't matter.

edited 21st Jul '15 12:04:42 PM by VeryMelon

wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#38528: Jul 21st 2015 at 12:08:26 PM

It's because don't just give a character a movie solely for the sake of tokenism. "Here, we're giving Falcon a movie. I hope you black people are happy now." No, I'd actually rather not have myself and people like me treated as just a checkbox. I'd rather there actually be something added by doing things different. I'd love if these movies weren't all about straight white males, but I'd rather they just not avert it for a quota.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#38529: Jul 21st 2015 at 12:11:11 PM

See, I think this is a false dichotomy.

People assume when diversity for diversity's sake is sought, that it doesn't also include said diversity being well thought-out, and not just a lazy hackjob.

When it does.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#38530: Jul 21st 2015 at 12:12:01 PM

“I know I’ve been very low-key on talking about the Jessica Jones TV show but I think I have to stop doing that because I can’t hold it any longer. I’m going to burst. The show is so good. I have seen the first couple of episodes, and because I didn’t work on it directly, I can say this with full no-ego fanfare: I loved it! And believe me, I was going to be the hardest on it. Harder than any of you. Jessica is a part of my DNA. A bad Jessica Jones show would have hurt me deeply.”

“BUT it is faithful and lively and everything that I could personally have wanted from the show. The mean streets of Marvel Netflix from a different perspective than [Matt Murdock]’s, but at the same time, it all fits. Just like the comics on their best day. And just like Netflix [Daredevil], the look of the show is cracklin’ noir but with its own palette.”

- Brian Michael Bendis,

Jessica Jones

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#38532: Jul 21st 2015 at 12:13:45 PM

What matters is if the people making these movies are passionate about the characters. That's why making a movie ONLY for the sake of diversity risks ending up with a really crappy film. This is the same problem when big studios try to cash in on the latest trends, and they end up just churning out low quality products for easy money. We've seen it happen before.

That's partly why Marvel has been doing so well so far, they're really passionate and know these characters much better than past studios. I do want them to diversify because I believe that they can do it AND make them good.

edited 21st Jul '15 12:16:23 PM by StarOutlaw

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#38533: Jul 21st 2015 at 12:34:55 PM

the thing is any choice you make regarding a character is arbitrary. having a character be a different ethnicity or sexuality than you is just one of the number of things you can do among many.

i do think that not every film needs to represent everybody but when we get to a point where the first female-led film is going to be in 2018 i understand why people would find that objectionable.

edited 21st Jul '15 12:36:42 PM by wehrmacht

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38534: Jul 21st 2015 at 12:41:41 PM

(And wouldn't it be funny if they wrote a James Bond like rival into the movie who is after the same secrets and is outsmarted by her?).

For symmetry's sake, I propose Yelena Belova, assuming Dottie from Agent Carter isn't already her.

She might be.

edited 21st Jul '15 12:42:24 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#38535: Jul 21st 2015 at 12:42:26 PM

Yeah, that's the big thing.

Straight white dude leads wouldn't be so bad if there were just as many women, or POC, or queer folk.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#38536: Jul 21st 2015 at 12:50:48 PM

[up][up] Dottie was running around in the forties, they haven't really done anything with Natasha to suggest she's got the same kind of anti-aging whateveritis that comic Natasha had so for Dottie to still be around and active would take a fair amount of contrivance.

Also, Dottie was pretty much an evil counterpart to Peggy, if they want to introduce a rival/dark mirror of Natasha just use Yelena instead.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38537: Jul 21st 2015 at 12:57:44 PM

I'm not saying they should use Dottie, I'm saying they should use Yelena but only IF Dottie isn't Yelena for exactly that reason.

As Dottie's actual name has yet to be revealed, we don't know for sure that she isn't Yelena Belova. She could very well be, which would make Yelena off-limits for a hypothetical Black Widow movie unless they wanted to go the anti-aging route.

edited 21st Jul '15 12:58:51 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38538: Jul 21st 2015 at 1:33:53 PM

I'd love if these movies weren't all about straight white males, but I'd rather they just not avert it for a quota.

And I'm sure that there are people who would rather have any representation, no matter the reason, rather than no representation.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#38539: Jul 21st 2015 at 1:56:59 PM

Y'know, as much as Batman V Superman Dawn Of Justice has me on edge, I will give DC credit for trying to work the diversity in from the get-go. A black Deadshot, a Wonder Woman movie, a Cyborg movie...they don't need to wait to prove that this cinematic universe idea works. Marvel had to play it safe because it needed to prove that the Marvel Studios Seal of Approval was worth it, and now they're stuck waiting on the timeline. DC has the advantage of not having much set in stone yet.

edited 21st Jul '15 1:58:28 PM by Watchtower

purplefishman Misanthrope Supreme from Ganzir Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Misanthrope Supreme
#38540: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:07:22 PM

[up]Provided they DO manage to get on with their plans. From the way it looks, I still have doubts.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38541: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:09:20 PM

[up][up]True.

[up]We'll see. I still hope they can do it because I like both Marvel and DC.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#38542: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:12:17 PM

[up]x4

I can agree with that. Also it doesn't have to be all here or there. Sure maybe on some level a movie might get the green-light on a corporate level purely because it adds more diversity to the lineup, but if it's then put in the hands of people who are genuinely passionate about the character and given the budget it needs an excellent movie can still result. It's only a problem if it's not given the budget it needs or is pawned off on an incompetent director who doesn't vaguely understand the character because the studio doesn't expect it to succeed.

I will say however that the TV side of the MCU seems to have a much better handle on things. Agents of SHIELD might theoretically star Agent Coulson, but in practice it's an ensemble show with a very strong female side of the cast. Agent Carter was of course the MCU's first officially female-led series and will be returning for a second season. The upcoming Jessica Jones Netflix series has such a diverse cast that between the 8 starring and recurring characters only two are white males. One of which is the main antagonist and the other is credited simply as "NYPD Cop".

edited 21st Jul '15 2:13:11 PM by Falrinn

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38543: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:12:59 PM

I have a hard time to give DC credit for anything, because they didn't need to wait for a cinematic universe. They could have done a Wonder Woman movie years ago. She is after all one of their big three, and was already a mainstream character in the 1970. And yet there are a ton of Superman and Batman movies and animated shows, but nothing with Wonder Woman since then.

jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#38544: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:14:26 PM

DC does still need to wait and see if the whole 'shared universes' concept works for them, it must be said. Marvel have kept a pretty rigid control system, some call it formulaic (perhaps justifiably) but it does mean everything fits in EXACTLY as they intend it to. They pieced it together very carefully. It might be a formula... but it's a working formula. White dudes sell, basically. What that says about the audience is debatable but it's money in the bank for Marvel thus far.

DC on the other hand seem to be basically throwing all sorts of different approaches at the audience (a female lead piece, a non-white Aquaman (ish), Suicide Squad with it's noticeably darker tone than Marvel have attempted thus far... and it might not come off. If the cohesion and unity of vision doesn't carry through then the 'shared world' effect is a bust and they're just making stand alones. I am not saying they are wrong to try it and I really hope it does work, but Marvel have nailed down what makes their MCU work. DCU will still need to do the same.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38545: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:14:28 PM

[up][up]True, but at least they are finally waking up.

edited 21st Jul '15 2:15:08 PM by Theokal3

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38546: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:20:23 PM

The impressive part of the MCU is how they keep all the puzzle pieces together. I see it mostly the way I see Sherlock, just the other way around. Sherlock is a very unusual TV show in that it has a really high production value, every episode has movie length and there aren't that many of them. It's like someone tried to put the cinema into the TV. And Marvel basically put the TV into the cinema, but not by creating a series of sequels, but by creating a complicated construct in which every story can (more or less) stand on its own, but influences the other stories nevertheless. And they have gotten better doing this with each movie.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#38547: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:35:43 PM

I feel like once Infinity War is out and over Phase 4 will have a lot more liberty to do as they like. It can be like Phase 1 where they don't have to work towards a great arc of some kind except for the gang to get together against whatever Big Bad arises, or they can do more teamup movies too.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38548: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:39:18 PM

[up]I wouldn't bet on it...I fully expect them to tackle something along the line of secret war next.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38549: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:43:26 PM

Actually I really wonder what will follow after Infinity War; should be hard to make something bigger than a guy who becomes a Reality Warper.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38550: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:44:54 PM

[up]That's why I am partial to the skrull invasion. The very notion that the earth is slowly conquered and nobody notices is very creepy.


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