TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38501: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:16:37 AM

The problem was that they pretty much wrote themselves into a corner. They didn't realize Black Widow would become so popular and they didn't realize people would clamor so much for female superheroes — and once they did realize that, they just put in one movie, Captain Marvel, which doesn't really make up for the many, many other movies.

It's the same thing with racial representation: all of the main characters in all of their movies are white. There will be a Black Panther movie, but that's it. This can also be chalked up to Marvel Comics themselves, since a vast majority of their main superheroes (who originated from the '60s and '70s) were white, too, so if they just go with "important" heroes, you end up with a sea of white faces with one or two black superheroes (like T'Challa and Luke Cage).

Of course, the real loser in all this is LGBT representation: none. None at all. Zip. Nada. Zero. (This, too, can be chalked up to the fact that pretty much all the LGBT characters came out more recently, so haven't really had time to become "important" characters in the overall Marvel canon.)

edited 21st Jul '15 10:18:18 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38502: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:19:45 AM

I see it as them acknowledging it as an issue they care about, and if they were mocking feminism I don't think they would have even bothered to have Hope become Wasp.

They didn't.

Even in the stinger, she never becomes Wasp. What she does get is a vague promise that the Wasp might appear in a future movie because Hank is no longer going to hold her back. The most she gets is her father giving her permission to some day be the Wasp.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38503: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:21:13 AM

[up] The acknowledgement is pretty much Hope's line that comes after that: "About damn time." Which is a fist-pumping line if there ever was one.

StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#38504: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:21:29 AM

[up][up] How is that mocking?

[down][down]I'll just stop here then by saying I'm happy with what the movie gave me and it makes me want to come back for more. I'm patient.

edited 21st Jul '15 10:25:10 AM by StarOutlaw

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38505: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:22:33 AM

Could you please take this to pms? I think 10 pages arguing with one guy is a little much.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#38506: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:25:05 AM

[up][up] To Tobias, it's mocking because she doesn't become the Wasp. It doesn't matter what is said about it or how it came out or anything like that. She didn't become the Wasp, therefore empty promises.

@alliterator: LGBT representation also winds up tying back to the X-Men, since a lot of Marvel's notable LGBT heroes are under that umbrella.

edited 21st Jul '15 10:25:56 AM by Watchtower

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38507: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:27:32 AM

The wrong way to handle Hope's arc.

  • HANK: I realize that I've been treating you poorly. You were right and I've been overprotective.
  • HOPE: So, does this mean I get to do the plan instead of Scott?
  • HANK: Oh, f*ck no, this is still all about Scott, you're still going to be inside the building with me being useless until Cross inevitably murders both of us unless Scott can save us. I'm apologetic, but it'll be a cold day in Hell before I actually CHANGE my behavior towards you.

The right way to handle Hope's arc.

  • HANK: I realize that I've been treating you poorly. You were right and I've been overprotective. Here's one of Jan's old suits; you will be more useful on mission with Scott than walking around Cross's building trying not to be suspicious. Two Ants are better than one.
  • HOPE: But what about you? Aren't you going to be on your own at Cross's presentation?
  • HANK: The hell I will. That man is a giant bag of crazy AND I'm planning to blow up the building. There is no reason for me to walk blindly into an obvious trap, buried under another trap of my own design. That's two layers of murder, you realize. I am going to be at home in my vault, hiding behind a mountain of shotguns until I hear from you two.

edited 21st Jul '15 10:29:47 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#38508: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:28:04 AM

Damn this thread moves fast.

The unnecessary makeout was indeed infuriating. Luis' storytelling was hilarious. More of him, please.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38509: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:42:35 AM

[up][up] While that second version would have been hilarious, I do think Hank thought that both he and Hope had to be there in the building or else Cross would get suspicious. (They didn't know that Cross already knew about their plans.)

And Hope did save her father's life by causing the ants to jam Cross's gun and then beating up a bunch of goons.

edited 21st Jul '15 10:43:13 AM by alliterator

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38510: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:45:49 AM

I will probably get gutted for saying this, but frankly, I don't care about having a Black Widow movie, let alone a trilogy. And not because she's a woman, mind you, but more because I don't find her that interesting as a character. She is a Badass Normal with no real gimmick beside being a spy- something she shares with Hawkeye- so in my eyes she is one of the least unique and interesting Avengers. I am just not convinced a movie about her could be interesting, especially since the whole spy movie thing has already been covered by Agent Carter's series. Plus it's not like she really received the short end of the stick: she was a Deuteragonist in Winter Soldier, a supporting character in Iron Man 2 and got overall more screentime than Hawkeye. I am all for movies with female superheroes as the main protagonists, but I would prefer ones with more appealing and unique gimmick/powers, which is why I look forward the Captain Marvel movie.

Mind you, I am completely aware I might be wrong, so if any of you disagree, then feel free to tell me how you would do a Black Widow movie that wouldn't feel boring or bland compared to the rest of the MCU. I'd be more than happy to listen and even happier to say I was wrong if you prove me so.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38511: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:53:52 AM

Personally, I want a She-Hulk movie.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38513: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:57:10 AM

I also want She-Hulk.

I will accept both film and television formats, as her powerset is not particularly effects-heavy.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38514: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:02:52 AM

Well, Hope-fully, we will see the Wasp kicking ass soon enough.

At the very least we know it will happen, and Marvel knows people are watching them on this, so they'll make it work out damned well.

Edit: I just realized there is another reason why Hope didn't jump into the fight in this one:

Things were going really fast. Remember, Cross had gotten the shrinking formula working, so that made them strapped for time, and Hank's speech at the end made it clear he had not touched the new Wasp suit in a long time. Even if he'd realized much sooner that Hope should be doing more than standing on the sidelines, once Cross walked into his house and invited him to the demonstration of his Yellowjacket suit, there may not have been time for him to even get the new suit running and up to snuff.

The situation was moving at an incredibly fast pace.

edited 21st Jul '15 11:06:04 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#38515: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:03:38 AM

TV would have the added bonus of not needing as much Bruce Banner (relatively speaking) to tell the story. A film has to condense everything so it has to become in part a Bruce Banner story to explain Jennifer's origin (since Bruce is her origin) and their relationship as well.

While this is not necessarily a bad thing, a tv series could do the same and contribute more time to it being Jennifer's story as well without the two characters vying for protagonist as much.

I actually had a really cool idea for a She-Hulk movie/tv series - the developed idea is in my list of "if I had the clout to pitch this" ideas.

edited 21st Jul '15 11:04:35 AM by KnownUnknown

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#38516: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:21:12 AM

[up]x9 They couldn't have done that. The Wasp suit wasn't ready for use in the field. Remember, it was an in-development prototype. Plus, they didn't really have time to make it ready.

edited 21st Jul '15 11:22:34 AM by FoxBoxKid

Make mine Marvel.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38518: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:27:14 AM

Okay, a She-Hulk movie or series WOULD be awesome.

And I think this article was right in the first half but goes more and more paranoid as you progress in the points.

edited 21st Jul '15 11:35:22 AM by Theokal3

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#38519: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:30:40 AM

Jaime Alexander definitely says that she's in "Thor: Ragnarok"

Is it wrong that for a second I thought you said Jason Alexander? :P

edited 21st Jul '15 11:30:50 AM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
wanderlustwarrior Role Model from Where Gods Belong Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Role Model
#38520: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:31:17 AM

Really, I'd rather not give someone a film just to fill a quota. That goes for females, minorities, etc.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#38521: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:31:39 AM

God I want a She-Hulk: Attorney at Law show so bad.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38522: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:32:40 AM

Really, I'd rather not give someone a film just to fill a quota. That goes for females, minorities, etc.

May I ask why? What is wrong with adding diversity for the sake of diversity? Why is that a bad thing? If many different types of people can see themselves represented in films, instead of just one type, that is a good thing.

edited 21st Jul '15 11:33:28 AM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38523: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:35:44 AM

They couldn't have done that. The Wasp suit wasn't ready for use in the field. Remember, it was an in-development prototype. Plus, they didn't really have time to make it ready.

The Wasp suit hadn't been introduced into the film yet. It could have been whatever they wanted it to be. The writers made a choice to say the Wasp suit wasn't ready yet so Hope can't be Wasp now, just like they made a choice to say that she can't be Ant-Man because Hank wants to keep her out of the action, and just like they made a choice to say that she and Scott are making out without even the slightest hint of romantic build-up or chemistry because they just are.

There is no such thing as atheist fiction. Everything that exists in a story does so because somebody wanted it to be done that way, and not any of the other ways it could have been done. Every in-universe explanation exists to justify out-of-universe decisions for how the story will be done.

edited 21st Jul '15 11:38:26 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#38524: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:53:38 AM

[up][up] The way I see it, it's a matter of the films not being made in a vacuum. The films are very consuming in both time and resources, and there's an overall narrative that they're trying to achieve. Each of these films serves some kind of purpose to Marvel's timeline and universe. Captain Marvel and Black Panther being made are definitely at least somewhat influenced by fan outcry for diversity, but I can tell there's more to them being made than just those reasons.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38525: Jul 21st 2015 at 11:53:47 AM

I have a blog in which I write about well-written female characters. The idea is to point out how to do it right instead of constantly complaining about what is done wrong. At the beginning of this year I decided to run a series about female Superhero comic characters in the Media. For the first one I excluded animated shows and concentrated on live-action versions of them. And when I made a list of which characters are worth talking about, well, the result was frustrating. Granted, I scratched Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman from the list because I want to compare her with the new version, so I have to wait a little bit. And granted I decided against writing about Mystique at this point for a couple of reasons. But the sad truth is that I ended up with a bunch of MCU characters, Gwen Stacy and Catwoman. Because who else should I have written about? Mary Jane, Louis Lane or any of Batman's boring love interests? The awful versions of Batgirl and Supergirl which was inflicted on us? Elektra?

The sad truth is that Marvel is the only studio which so far even tried to give the audience female characters who are more than just something for the hero to angst over. And they got better with every outing. There are worlds between Betty Ross and Hope. And, no pun intended, this gives me hope. It is not enough that someone does a female lead superhero movie. They have to deliver a successful one. A good one.

Yeah, Marvel should have considered the issue of representation earlier. But they are obviously working on it. Who would have thought that we would even get a Luke Cage or Jessica Jones series three years ago? Or a Captain Marvel movie.

I think that we all know that Phase 4 will depend on what resonates the most with the audience. It is not a given that every hero which now gets an own movie will get a trilogy. But I certainly have my own personal wishlist. I still want a Black Widow Spy thriller. I want to see her taking a mission, going undercover and solving the issue the same way James Bond would do, but Black Widow style. (And wouldn't it be funny if they wrote a James Bond like rival into the movie who is after the same secrets and is outsmarted by her?). I want to see a Guardian of the Galaxy movie which focusses on Gamora's relationship with Thanos and Nebula (but I guess I actually might get that this phase). I want Captain Marvel to be so good and such a success that she warrants a trilogy. And now I also want a Wasp movie which features Hope rescuing her mother. And if Peggy weren't living in the past, I would love to see a movie with her, too.

Point is, those are all characters I didn't really care about five years ago. But Marvel made me care. And now I expect them to take the next step.


Total posts: 186,763
Top