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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#38476: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:36:58 AM

That's the only trope for that, yes.

Though that laconic definition is pretty terrible. I seems like someone took the "fetishist" part of the title too extremely: the trope itself is not specifically about being turned on.

The first paragraph of the description describes it a lot better:

This character is happily intrigued by whatever is strange, dangerous, disturbing, and/or frightening. If this character is "part of The Team," their fellows may regard them oddly. Indeed, what's Nightmare Fuel or Squick to other characters could very well be Fetish Fuel or Squee to this character. For example, a Nightmare Fetishist may consider Halloween their favorite holiday, harbor an obscure or oddly specific kink, think that the monsters they're supposed to be fighting are cute, or simply be born with this trait as part of their species or family.

So... yeah. The trope is about people who delight in the gruesome and grim, which includes people who find creepy things to be cool.

edited 21st Jul '15 8:40:48 AM by KnownUnknown

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#38477: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:37:58 AM

[up][up] Yeah, Wasp not being definitively dead is a pretty good sequel hook. And honestly, I actually half-expected it.

edited 21st Jul '15 8:38:27 AM by edvedd

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#38478: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:40:31 AM

[up][up] Looking at it now, while there are a good number of mentions of fetishes, it explicitly states that there's a sliding scale, with "fetish" being at one of the extremes. So it's more that the trope itself is just poorly named.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#38479: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:43:10 AM

I would kill for a Wasp movie that focuses on her looking for Janet in the Microverse. There's also a slim possibility of Hank and Janet appearing in Agent Carter if it gets far enough.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38480: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:43:55 AM

It's not even an onscreen promise for much. It's just saying, "The Wasp is a thing that will happen some day in some movie maybe." She could appear for five seconds in an ensemble shot during Infinity War and Marvel could count that as fulfilling the promise. I don't have a lot of faith at this point, and this movie did nothing to instill me with any.

Maybe Ant-Man will get a sequel and she'll get to be the hero's girlfriend who sometimes does helpful things. Maybe Ant-Man won't get a sequel and she'll go the way of the Leader. Maybe, maybe, there will be a Wasp movie but I'm not holding my breath for that one because Marvel has made their disdain for her pretty clear in this one.

I mean, it only took ten and a half years for Marvel to finally cave to demands for a female-driven movie, so I think anyone expecting this to turn into a Wasp spinoff is going to be waiting for a long time. Check back in around 2025, there might be talks of a Wasp film then.

It's been seven years now since the inception of the Marvel universe. We're two whole phases down, and it's been white male leads across the board. At this point, I don't want promises. I'm tired of promises. Marvel says, "I promise Hope will get to suit up some day," and all I can think is, what's wrong with today? And they did themselves no favors by having Hope spend the entire movie asking that same question.

edited 21st Jul '15 8:48:33 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#38481: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:55:03 AM

Hank being an Overprotective Dad and he tension between him and Hope is the majority of their arc. Those characters wouldn't be who they are without that. I think the film makes it quite clear that Hank isn't in the right, and by extension his denying Hope the Ant-Man suit isn't Marvel making some kind of meta commentary that "Girls can't be heroes." If anything it's the opposite, and I like that it's not done in a really cliched You Go, Girl! kind of way a lesser movie might try to. Although, it WOULD have been cool if Hope had donned the Wasp costume to save Scott at the end, but then we might not have had Scott go subatomic.

I really don't think Hank's being sexist or that he thinks Hope is too weak to handle it because she's a girl. They explain all the decisions he makes; Hank losing Jan pretty much broke him, he doesn't want to lose Hope but he has issues that drove her away. He chooses Scott because he not only has the skills, but also because a) he wants to give Scott a second chance and b) Scott is NOT Hope and he is expendable, so if it all goes wrong it will be Scott who dies instead of Hope, because no matter how much better at the job Hope is, Hank is completely unwilling to put her into ANY kind of risk after what happened.

So yeah, I don't think Hope's gender is part of Hank's issue, and it never felt like he patronizes her to me. His motivation feels very real. We aren't meant to agree with him anyway though. The bitterness between him and Hope is treated very seriously. On a meta level, I think Hope's arc might be some kind of commentary on sexism in superhero movies. She's pissed off she doesn't get the suit

Regardless of all that, I really do like Hope and I thought the film treated her just fine. She's probably my favorite character I can't wait to see more of her.

[up]Seriously? Disdain? Did we watch the same movie? Because it seems like Marvel really likes her. Just because she's a supporting character doesn't mean they hate her. I do trust Marvel, they did a lot with this film that they really didn't need to do. It's earned some good will from me.

edited 21st Jul '15 8:59:05 AM by StarOutlaw

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38482: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:02:19 AM

In Marvel's defence: Their most prolific female heroes are owned by Fox. It is not their fault that Fox is unable to utilize what they have properly. The most famous Superheroine is owned by DC, and yet they haven't managed a movie with her, despite her being part of their main trio. When Marvel started their cinematic universe, they started with the Avengers. I think it was a mistake to give Ant-Man to Wright, not just because of the delays, but because he would have never used the Wasp properly. And other than her, which female characters were left? So they built up Black Widow, they built up Peggy Carter and now they are doing a leap with Captain Marvel. It's not ideal, but it is more than any other studio has done so far, despite all of them having better known females to work with.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#38483: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:05:05 AM

[up][up]Also I think it should be mentioned that while Hope doesn't wear the actual suit, she still participates in the heist and uses the Ant controlling aspect of the Wasp's power-set to great effect during it. Hank just had a major hang-up with her using the suit because of what happened to Janet, he knew she could handle herself in general.

edited 21st Jul '15 9:05:31 AM by Falrinn

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#38484: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:06:31 AM

Implicit but woefully unstated, also, is that Hope was the best bet for controlling the company and forging a better future for Pym Tech in the future - and that between herself and Cross, she is the more deserving heir. The movie doesn't play that up anywhere near as much as it should have (it would've improved both Cross as a character and Hope's arc in general), however.

edited 21st Jul '15 9:07:38 AM by KnownUnknown

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#38485: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:08:36 AM

[up][up][up][up] I think we moved on from "Is Hank a misogynist?" at this point. We're more on the point of "Is the film itself misogynist, even if only implicitly?"

To which I say no, because there's nothing about what happens with Hope (besides the ending kiss with Scott) that relies on her being female. Cross doesn't even try to lust over her like you'd expect a stock crazy villain like him to do, keeping things very clearly and cleanly about their "mutual" hatred for Hank.

[up][up][up][up][up] I assume by "ten and a half years" you're referring to Elektra. A film that was made as a spin-off of Daredevil but got panned horribly. A film that, combined with the equally-panned Catwoman just half a year earlier, scared the old guard into thinking those kind of movies couldn't a work, a mindset that has slowly but surely been eroded away and is still eroding away. If Marvel didn't have this long-ass timeline of theirs, I could see them making a Wasp spin-off as "Okay, we're doing this shit right this time."

Hell, we keep talking about the movies, but what about the shows? There's Agent Carter, as has been stated, but Agents Of Shield has kept most of the focus prominently on Skye, and the next upcoming Netflix hero is Jessica Jones.

edited 21st Jul '15 9:14:18 AM by Watchtower

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38486: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:12:12 AM

Yeah. There's no real sexism towards Hope.

Yes, she should have been the one to wear the suit, but it's Hank's fear of what could happen to her that pushes him to avoid that.

Hell, it's possible that Hank was afraid Hope would be willing to make the same sacrifice her mother did if it came to it (and he would know better than anyone if she would) that played a part in the decision. If he saw himself (and all the worst things) in Cross, then who's to say he didn't see Janet (and all the best things) in Hope.

Anyway, the next time we see her, she will be the Wasp, and she will be kicking ass, so it's something to look forward to.

One Strip! One Strip!
xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#38487: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:14:42 AM

"Yeah, there’s a lot of great stuff they’ve peppered in through Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., The Avengers, Captain [America: Civil War] will have some stuff," she said. "There's just all kind of Easter eggs and hints, if you’re really paying attention. They’re so good at interweaving everything throughout those films."

"Captain America: Civil War is the jump-off into The Avengers: The Infinity War. Civil War is going to be the setup for the real battle. So yeah, there are a lot of people - a lot of people in Cap 3."

In what ways can CW set up the cosmic conflict? I can't think of anything beyond Loki being involved or signs that Red Skull is still here. Currently no one on Earth knows of Thanos and another infinity stone popping out of nowhere on Earth would just come across as copying the Tesseract all over again.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38488: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:14:48 AM

Keeping women out of the spotlight for reasons other than being women is still keeping women out of the spotlight. It's the same effect with a more pleasant sounding excuse.

You know how any time a sentence that begins with the words, "Now, I'm not racist, but," you can be reasonably assured that what's about to come out of that person's mouth is going to be racist? It's the same thing. "Now, I'm not trying to marginalize women, BUT...."

Then don't. Making the studio's unwillingness to give female heroes a starring role into an actual plot point does not make it better, nor does showing off the fantastic Wasp suit she doesn't get to wear at the end.

[up][up][up] No, I'm referring to Captain Marvel. Iron Man kicked off the franchise in May of 2008. The first female-driven film will finally hit theaters in November of 2018, ten and a half years and twenty films after the franchise began.

edited 21st Jul '15 9:15:12 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38489: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:15:43 AM

Good, we've gotten to the actual issue.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38490: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:21:24 AM

Well, the timeline has both advantages and disadvantages. One big advantage is that it is in a way only a matter of time.

The thing is, I actually expected Hope to be a token character. But she really wasn't. She was a side-character, but the same way Black Widow or Falcon were side-characters. Her story had a meaning. And I might be alone with this but I am kind of glad that Marvel didn't even try to write another romance. Now we know that there is a spark and if those two are together the next time around, well, we can assume that their relationship grew off-screen. It wasn't the most elegant way to do it, but it certainly was a better call than trying to shoe-horn in a romantic subplot with everything else which was going on. As it was, the mentor/pupil there was sometimes a little bit fighting with the father/daughter theme

Above all I am really glad how they managed to avoid certain clichés, not just related to Superhero movies but also to heist movies.

It has been so common that a heist seemingly goes wrong and then there is the big twist which showed that it was all part of the plan. They don't do this. This time the heist genuinely does go wrong and they are forced to improvise to pull it off after all.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38492: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:48:40 AM

Jaime Alexander definitely says that she's in "Thor: Ragnarok" and that there will be hints in "Civil War" and "Agents of SHIELD."

I mean, I'm not sure if she's saying actual hints or if she's just saying that everything is interconnected, but it would be very awesome if she guest-starred again on Agents of SHIELD and there was a Ragnarok tie-in.

Actually, you know, just give me a Journey Into Mystery ten-episode mini-series. (...okay, I know that isn't possible right now with her new show Blindspot, but still.)

Thor: Ragnarok is what I'm actually the most worried about, because I love Walter Simonson's run on Thor and that is what this movie appears to be taking from.

edited 21st Jul '15 9:49:30 AM by alliterator

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#38493: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:52:24 AM

I would watch a show all about Lady Sif, honestly.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38494: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:53:33 AM

I'd watch a show about Sif provided I find it interesting.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#38495: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:54:36 AM

I mean... that's kind of a given isn't it?

Most people don't watch shows they don't find interesting.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#38496: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:56:23 AM

Lady Sif and the Warriors Three, going on Fantasy/Sci-Fi adventures around the Nine Realms? Hell yes.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38497: Jul 21st 2015 at 9:59:09 AM

I would be glad Marvel didn't bother trying to write another romance if they hadn't ended the film on a big kiss anyway. Like with Hope herself calling out the film's mistreatment of her, the surprise kiss gag felt like Marvel shrugging its shoulders and going, "Okay, yeah, we know this is stupid, but the most important female of the film MUST be the male lead's squeeze at the end of the film. I don't care how little sense it makes, we're doing it."

edited 21st Jul '15 10:00:54 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#38498: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:04:02 AM

At this point I just feel like reiterating that Marvel should just announce the black widow trilogy already. Because:

1: Guaranteed moneymakers. for proof, see: "Lucy. Boxoffice thereoff"

2: The main thing that pisses people off isn't any particular movie or story, but the fact that they are so very loopsided on diversity overall. A black widow series would help.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38499: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:10:39 AM

The main thing that pisses people off isn't any particular movie or story, but the fact that they are so very loopsided on diversity overall. A black widow series would help.

As far as Hope goes, that's true. In a vacuum, she would be fine, but at a time when Marvel's come under a lot of fire for its marginalization of women and minorities, turning the marginalization of a female character into a plot point, using that to keep her out of the action, and then shoving her into the hero's arms at the very end just because, feels like a deliberate middle finger to people who want more diverse protagonists in the MCU.

It's poking the bear for giggles. It communicates that Marvel is aware of the complaints, they just don't care. Hope's arc can be summarized as Kevin Feige rolling his eyes and going, "LOL, feminists, amirite?"

edited 21st Jul '15 10:11:27 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#38500: Jul 21st 2015 at 10:11:02 AM

[up] How do you know Scott didn't become her squeeze?

You're coming at this from an extremely pessimistic view, and it might be justified, but I really don't see it as a big middle finger or Feige mocking feminists. I see it as them acknowledging it as an issue they care about, and if they were mocking feminism I don't think they would have even bothered to have Hope become Wasp, even if it is a tease. They treat the character too seriously for it to be mocking.

edited 21st Jul '15 10:20:43 AM by StarOutlaw


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