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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#38451: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:09:00 AM

From my understanding, Hope had no role and the Wasp was mentioned in a throw away line. So, considering she's upgraded significantly compared to that in the finished film, I'm glad that they didn't do that and thankful they gave her as much as they did.

Especially since Lilly apparently helped give ideas for her character between takes and etc.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38452: Jul 21st 2015 at 2:16:35 AM

Random observation: I wonder if they picked 1989 because that was the year in which the Iron curtain fell, meaning that Ant-man basically stopped being ant-man roughly around the time he wasn't needed anymore

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#38453: Jul 21st 2015 at 4:35:11 AM

[up][up]She had a large enough role in the original draft that she wanted to quit the movie when Wright left. It took Marvel telling her "Hey, we are rewriting the script to become less of a character study and more like Gotg so we can add some more scenes with you doing things if you stay". Also Wasp and Ant-Man being agents in the past was still a thing. We really need a interview with Wright, or someone like Whedon(who read the draft and loved it)leaking the draft online.

@Who to play Janet: Douglas wants Zeta-Jones for it.

@Hope's next movie appearance: Not CW because they would've said it at the same time as they announced Ant-Man was in it. Not CM because that's probably going to have a Air Force/military location as the focus and that's more the place for agents to show up like Jessica Drew. Not DS because he's apparently not going to really meet the rest of the MCU directly(so probably in IW like he did in the Infinity Gauntlet book after being called by Warlock). Not BP because her showing up in Africa I find it hard to see. That leaves pretty much only IW which already has a ton of heroes in it so her role will most likely be small and meant to build up Ant-Man 2/and Wasp in the phase after(most likely she will have scenes on Earth but not in space if they go there).

@Ant-Man: Movie is out tomorrow evening here. Not seeing it until next week. Will probably think the same as Tobias since we usually rank movies the same.

@Next big post: Guess what's coming before the end of this month from me? The detailed list of the top ten MCU dream movies I want to see that I've been working on on and off for the last month.

Edit: Also hi, the thread dropped from my watchlist for a few days so I thought someone got the thread locked for a week and that's why there were no new posts. Would've posted sooner if I knew it was still active.

edited 21st Jul '15 4:43:47 AM by LordofLore

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#38454: Jul 21st 2015 at 5:05:58 AM

And while Cross was a bit generic, he was also one of, in my opinion, the most frightening villains in the MCU.

That kinda caught me off-guard because, well, I don't suppose you've seen Daredevil? Because Kingpin's pretty creepy there. Actually "pretty" may be something of an understatement...

But yeah, being able to turn living people/creatures into goo and willing to hurt a little girl is horrifying in of itself.

Also, I really don't see where Tobias is getting all this "Pym is a sexist asshat who blew up his company for unjustified reasons" thing from. I got absolutely none of that when I saw the movie.

Will probably think the same as Tobias since we usually rank movies the same.

[up] Please don't. It's better than Tobias says it is.

edited 21st Jul '15 5:07:48 AM by TargetmasterJoe

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38455: Jul 21st 2015 at 5:57:27 AM

I think ruthless and unnecessary cruel are the right words. Kingpin is the former, but he doesn't delight in cruelty.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#38456: Jul 21st 2015 at 6:26:21 AM

Hope's next movie appearance: Not CW because they would've said it at the same time as they announced Ant-Man was in it.

Well, not necessarily. I don't think she'll appear but if she were going to, I don't think they would have advertised it back then. We'd had copious amounts of confirmation that Ant-Man was Scott Lang by that point, but they played The Reveal of Hope becoming the new Wasp very close to their chest and only started giving it up right before the movie came out.

I'm not saying it'll happen but it would not be out of the ordinary (especially with Marvel's track record) to have a cameo from the Wasp that they didn't announce before.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#38457: Jul 21st 2015 at 6:29:34 AM

Is that really a case of The Reveal? It seemed pretty clear that's where they were going with things.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#38458: Jul 21st 2015 at 6:36:16 AM

[up] It's clear in the sense that anyone who's read the comics could figure it out pretty easily. In the few interviews I found through The Other Wiki they focus more on Hope not getting the Ant-Man suit, with the Wasp suit never coming up. They do keep pretty hush-hush.

edited 21st Jul '15 6:38:22 AM by Watchtower

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#38459: Jul 21st 2015 at 6:46:57 AM

Didn't Rhodey show up in Age of Ultron as War Machine even though they didn't really talk that much about it beforehand?

What if the same will apply for Wasp in Civil War?

edited 21st Jul '15 6:48:01 AM by TargetmasterJoe

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#38460: Jul 21st 2015 at 6:50:27 AM

Also apparently the ending with HYDRA getting away with a sample of Pym Particles will tie into Civil War.

StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#38461: Jul 21st 2015 at 6:57:22 AM

With those scenes supposedly being added to Wright's script, which is supposedly what caused him to leave the project, and the issue with there being so few female superheroes, it kind of feels like Feige and Marvel are acknowledging it. Maybe it could be seen as just a token gesture, but IF they were willing to lose Wright over it I'm inclined to think Marvel is trying to make a sincere effort. Kind of makes me look back at that interview question and wonder if the generic answer given was just to hide spoilers.

I don't know, I just find it a tad funny/ironic that there was SO much bitching about Ant-Man getting a movie before Black Widow (even though the demand for BW was only because of Avengers in the first place), and then Wright left production because Marvel wanted more focus on the ladies (assuming this is the case).

But I'm just speculating. I'm also thread hopping so sorry if this was already brought up here.

edited 21st Jul '15 6:59:07 AM by StarOutlaw

TargetmasterJoe from Velocitron Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
#38462: Jul 21st 2015 at 6:59:58 AM

Anyone wondering what's Edgar Wright's beef with strong women characters?

edited 21st Jul '15 7:00:13 AM by TargetmasterJoe

StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#38463: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:03:06 AM

[up]I don't think he necessarily has a beef with them, and I'm hoping he just doesn't like people messing with his ideas. I kind of feel like he's specifically a Scott Lang fan, and only kind of likes Hank. I think he just wanted a very Scott focused movie and did not want to broaden the scope of the film. At leas that's what I hope. I really don't want to think that he's just sexist.

edited 21st Jul '15 7:03:45 AM by StarOutlaw

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38464: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:20:19 AM

It was a token effort.

Hope's a fun character, but a large part of what makes her likable is that she had as little patience for the film's abject dismissal of her as I did. The film doesn't get points from me for the stinger because the stinger is an empty gesture.

Adding Hope into the movie so that she can be mistreated and abused for wanting to be the main character until she finally accepts her place as secondary to the White Man Protagonist, and then hook ups with him at the end for literally no reason at all other than that the White Man Protagonist always gets rewarded with a woman-trophy at the end of movies, honestly feels more insulting towards women than if she'd never been in the film at all.

With that in mind, the stinger's reveal of the Wasp suit just comes off as a slap in the face. "Look! A new female hero! ...not this movie, but maybe...no, Phase 3 is packed...I don't know, give it five or seven years, we might pay off your arc some day. Maybe. If we can find a writer who gives a shit about women."

Like Claire Deering, she was a better character than the film deserved, and the film didn't know how to handle that and just wound up shitting on her at every turn.

edited 21st Jul '15 7:23:15 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#38465: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:29:55 AM

I don't think he's a sexist or anything remotely close to that, he's just very fond of a particularly type of protagonist and it shows up in virtually all his work. I mentioned it last week (I think) but even Simon Pegg made a crack about how writing good parts for women has always been Egdar's Achilles Heel.

He's very talented at what he does and 9 times out of 10 that tends to be "relatable" slacker guys.

edited 21st Jul '15 7:30:19 AM by comicwriter

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38466: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:34:42 AM

Well, while I am ready to give Marvel credit for the way the handled Hope, mostly because they manage to avoid some unfortunate tropes (they did show her as competent and gave a good reason why she didn't don the suit herself, she was integral to the plan and they resisted in giving her some token empty gesture moment in which she can do something seemingly badass which is totally pointless in the great scheme of things), they are not off the hook. Still, they are making progress, and that is good to see. It looks like the times in which woman were only either stumbling block or a motivator for the heroes are over. I have the feeling that in phase 4, a Wasp will lead the Avengers.

I also liked that Ant-man was branching out a little bit to introduce some "normal people" into the frame. I always felt that this was an element, which was missing in the MCU.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#38467: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:40:48 AM

[up][up][up] As much as I disagree with how you think the film handled the Pyms, I will agree that Scott and Hope appearing to hook up at the end comes completely out of nowhere. I mean, I figured they would go that route, what with Scott and Hope becoming the "replacements" (if you will) for Hank and Jan, but the film really doesn't do anything to build it up, and even kinda revels in how sudden it is for a quick ending joke.

[up]I'd like to note that Tobias can be extremely passionate when it comes to female representation and equality (and very rightfully so). Knowing him, "still in progress" might as well be no progress at all, and is just as inexcusable.

edited 21st Jul '15 7:47:46 AM by Watchtower

xbimpy Since: Jul, 2015
#38468: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:45:47 AM

I also liked that Ant-man was branching out a little bit to introduce some "normal people" into the frame. I always felt that this was an element, which was missing in the MCU."

Ever since after Avengers 1, the MCU has been slowly changing to show more light on those who would normally be considered irrelevant to the larger than life realm Avengers protect. Meaning bystanders are no longer just people who cower when an alien attacks. Now they are starting to get involved with these conflicts. There is an interaction between the everyman and larger than life

edited 21st Jul '15 7:48:37 AM by xbimpy

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#38469: Jul 21st 2015 at 7:59:26 AM

We need more Luis in our lives. I actually didn't realize until I saw it on the TV Tropes page that he seems like a pretty cultured guy who likes fine art and wine, and has friends who do too.

I also liked what they did with Paxton. He initially came off as mildly dickish, but in the end he is a normal guy who takes his work seriously and genuinely loves his family.

edited 21st Jul '15 8:01:00 AM by edvedd

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38470: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:00:57 AM

The supporting cast was pretty great. I liked Luis and his crew too.

I also liked Paxton, and I feel the film did a great job with him; I immediately expected him to be the classic "Ex's new man who is an asshole so we don't have to feel bad when the hero gets his ex back, and possibly he dies." Instead, he was a good man trying to protect his family from the toxic influence of his daughter's ex-con biological father.

And, of course, Cassie was adorable and her relationship with her father was wonderful in any scene except the mind-numbing part where Cross decided to go after her For the Evulz. Scott trying to earn his way back into Cassie's life was the best thing in the entire film.

I'd like to note that Tobias can be extremely passionate when it comes to female representation and equality (and very rightfully so). Knowing him, "still in progress" might as well be no progress at all, and is just as inexcusable.

Yeah, for me, it really didn't feel like much progress, if any. Just more empty promises. It actually felt like a belligerent lack of progress, with Hope thrashing and chomping at the bit as Marvel restrains her to her support role. She desperately wanted a better role in the film and Marvel, like her father, screamed at her that their word is final, stay out of the spotlight, this is White Man time.

edited 21st Jul '15 8:05:56 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#38471: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:02:27 AM

And also, Tom Kenny is credited as 'hideous bunny'. That cracked me up when I saw it.

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#38472: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:09:53 AM

[up][up]The whole messed up family dynamic Scott and Cassie had was really nice. Scott knew exactly what his daughter wanted, even though pretty much everyone around them wanted to keep them separate.

I also really LIKED that Cross decided "Hey, this asshole who just ruined my life has a daughter. TIME TO RETURN THE FAVOR!" and promptly went FULL terminator. He's crazy, but he's not the wasteful kind of crazy evil who does stuff For the Evulz and instead makes the logical(-ish) decision to go after the one thing Scott cares about. He can guarantee Scott will show up and bring the Ant-man suit, and then either force Scott to hand over the suit willingly or kill Scott and take the suit by force, either way he comes out on top with the original ant-man suit AND the Yellowjacket he was wearing to sell to HYDRA and make oodles of money and get protection from them. And the Pym particles, which literally any major power on the planet would pay in continents for.

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#38473: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:24:52 AM

[up][up][up] The mid-credits scene makes it more than just "empty", since Hank very plainly shows a suit as says "This is yours". Compared to the tease for War Machine in the first Iron Man, it's more fulfilling. And the way Hank talks about it, it's not a gift or something Hope's been given permission for. It's practically a birthright.

And yeah, I know there's the whole undercurrent of "The White Man keeping the women down", but I chalk that more to Unfortunate Implications. "Father rejects his more-qualified child in favor of a stranger" is a story that can and has been told with sons.

Quick trope-related question: Do we have a trope for "person who finds something creepy to be cute" that is not Nightmare Fetishist?

edited 21st Jul '15 8:30:27 AM by Watchtower

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38474: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:32:39 AM

We'll see if the promise is empty or not. This time around it is an on-screen promise, so I am optimistic. And The fact that they avoided showing the face of the Wasp, tells me that they have plans for the character and don't want to box themselves in just yet. I am still salivating over the story-telling possibilities they set up. And I have the feeling that this is more than we would have gotten with the original draft. I think they listened when the fans expressed their disappointment over the idea that Wasp has been killed off before the MCU even started.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38475: Jul 21st 2015 at 8:35:10 AM

[up][up]I was under the impression that trope was what you just say. But now that I checked the laconic definition.... yeah, I see your point.


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