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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38376: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:31:59 PM

Cross was actually quite reasonable in his business practices when he wasn't twirling his moustache For the Evulz.

Yes, because reasonable people totally kill anyone who says, "Hey, this might be dangerous."

I'm sorry, but Cross was crazy cuckoo pants throughout the movie.

Seriously. That's not how business works.

You keep saying "this isn't how business works" or "this isn't how military works," but guess what? This is how fiction works. Pymtech isn't a real business. SHIELD isn't a real organization. This is all fiction.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:32:56 PM by alliterator

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38377: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:32:16 PM

I know they're teasing that she'll become Wasp later, but why do we have to wait until Ant-Man 2, or some glorified cameo in the next Avengers movie? Why can't she just be the Wasp now?

Because it's an Antman movie, not a Wasp movie. They are not forcing the male character for sexist purpose, they are doing this because the source material requires it. I agree it's sad she couldn't be Wasp now but hey, at least she will be next time.

I'm not a big fan of Gamora either, now that you mention it.

Well, I know it's bitchy to compare it to the comic, but from what I heard, comic book Gamora was a rather compelling character. Her movie counterpart felt like a standard bland female protagonist, or more positively a female Black Widow. She had something going for her with her link to Thanos but that was underused. Hopefully they'll improve that in the second movie.

I can agree with that. Ultron works enough for me, but I think he could have been better.

Same here. Now that Antman's movie turned out well, I am kinda more forgiving they gave him to Stark rather than Pym.

Still, the character holds a special place in my heart for being an AI that could almost certainly pass the Turing Test.

What's the Turing test?

Maybe not so much in Iron Man 2 and the Avengers films, but I thought how Black Widow was portrayed in The Winter Soldier was very good. I agree that Gamora was pretty underwhelming, though I liked Nebula.

Agreed, Widow was good in Winter Soldier, and even decent in the Avengers, but honestly I still feel like she is a bit of a standard Action Girl. I really hope for more female superheroes who will be more unique and striking.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:35:26 PM by Theokal3

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38378: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:35:06 PM

[up][up] That's moustache-twirling For the Evulz.

[up] The Turing Test is a test used to determine if an artificial intelligence is truly intelligent. The idea is that you ask a series of questions to a human, and then ask the same questions to the AI. The responses are then judged by a collection of people who don't know which is which, and if the AI's responses are impossible to reliably identify as belonging to an AI, then you have a true intelligence.

Most fictional AI are completely ignorant of human mannerisms, emotionless, literal-minded, or otherwise painfully identifiable as a computer.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#38379: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:35:57 PM

[up][up] "A female Black Widow"? Isn't Black Widow... already female?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38380: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:37:06 PM

I think he meant to go with "Alien Black Widow".

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38381: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:37:31 PM

[up][up][up]I see. Thanks for clarifying.

And yes, I meant alien Black Widow. Sorry, it's getting late on my side, I am starting to tire a bit^^'

edited 20th Jul '15 5:38:27 PM by Theokal3

LDragon2 Since: Dec, 2011
#38382: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:37:52 PM

I found the Banner/Black Widow romance to be rather weird in terms of execution, and I feel the Whedon didn't really try to connect it with the other films. Heck, a lot of problems that I had with the film, in particular Ultron being a wise-cracking villain, actually has much to do with Whedon's way of characterization.

Again, I found Cross to be a much more intimidating villain. And while it would have been nice to see Hope become The Wasp in the movie proper, I feel that her characterization and personality made up for that, and it gives her a proper set up for future appearances (seriously, that design of her suit at the end was awesome).

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#38383: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:38:12 PM

I think what held Hope back from being more involved was the legacy of the Wright draft. She wasn't even in his draft, so they could only have her do so much without gutting the entire script and starting over from scratch.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38384: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:38:15 PM

That's moustache-twirling For the Evulz.

I don't think there was ever a point during the movie when Cross wasn't a mustache-twirling villain. I mean, he killed cute lambs and Frank and broke into Pym's house. What else was there? We don't really see any of his business dealings except at the beginning (with the incredibly evil looking presentation) and the end (where he is selling to Hydra).

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#38385: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:40:02 PM

I still maintain that killing lambs isn't really any more "evil" than killing mice. Mice can be pretty adorable too.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38386: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:41:14 PM

[up][up][up][up]Agreed about Janet. Now that's a female superhero with a recognizable design. I am also putting much hope in the Captain Marvel movie.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:41:30 PM by Theokal3

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38387: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:41:22 PM

[up][up]Yeah, but lambs are cuter.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:41:31 PM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38388: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:42:02 PM

Yeah. Killing the lambs is just animal experimentation. That's just standard business practice for chemical development; it was weird that it was lambs, but not for ethical reasons; rats are cheaper because they reproduce insanely fast.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LDragon2 Since: Dec, 2011
#38389: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:43:07 PM

Heh, I guess all the critics complaining about Wright leaving don't realize that that a lot of the better things in the movie had nothing to do with him.

And again, I think Cross is up there with Loki, Red Skull, Ronan, and (YMMV, since he's not technically one) Winter Soldier in terms of intimidating villains in the MCU. His moment where he liquified that one guy was just plain ruthless and frightening to watch. Really, the fact that he went to such lengths such as that and trying to harm a young girl just for revenge made him ten times more threatening than Ultron.

Not sure why he gets so much criticism. Yeah, he has a simple motivation and personality, but it was well executed that I didn't mind. Same goes for Ronan.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#38390: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:45:11 PM

His actor did a good job, and his costume looks really cool. That I'll concede.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38391: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:46:11 PM

[up][up]I think people are complaining he was a bit bland and basically Obadiah Stane mark II. Which is kinda true. But frankly he didn't really needed to be more. He fullfilled his role and he did it well. And as you said, despite being a "mustach-twirling villain", he was frighteningly sociopath.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:46:59 PM by Theokal3

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#38392: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:47:00 PM

I don't see the point of complaining that Ultron is "yet another quipping villain" when the only other "quipping" villain we've had is Loki and maybe Killian, depending on how you're defining it.

Stane, Vanko, Red Skull, Ronan, Cross, Malekith, and Pierce? Not at all. And that's not even getting into henchmen/lesser villains such as Kurse, Zola, Nebula, Korath, Barnes, Batroc, Laufey, the dude whose name I forget from the beginning of Iron Man...

At this point "quip" is coming across as a meaningless buzzword.

Regarding killing lambs or killing mice, why not just test shrinking, you know, lab-cultured organic tissue or such to see if it liquefies instead of retaining its shape? Lambs have gotta be pretty expensive. tongue

edited 20th Jul '15 5:49:17 PM by Anomalocaris20

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higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#38393: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:48:03 PM

Corey Stoll made Cross really entertaining and compelling to watch, IMO. If he was played by a less talented actor, I'm sure Cross would've come across as Not A Good Villain.

While I dislike Ultron for being too Whedon-y, people who keep saying stuff like, "too many quips" are clearly not watching the same MCU movies that I watch.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:50:49 PM by higherbrainpattern

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38394: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:52:23 PM

[up][up]Well, the problem is less that Ultron is "yet another" one like that, and more that he is making jokes that way when he was supposed to be threatening and menacing. Personally I think he could have been capable of both, but I agree he could have used more scary level. I do however like the fact he had emotion despite being a robot (which made him somewhat more unique) and the fact he seemed to genuinely care about the twins. I also think he had some good speeches. Frankly, if at some point he had just cut the quips and started going Unstoppable Rage on the Avengers while acting more serious, it could have fixed it.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:55:19 PM by Theokal3

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#38395: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:53:58 PM

[up][up] "Quippy" is more of a Whedon-specific problem than an MCU one if you ask me. A lot of the villains have a similar sense of smugness going on with them, but not so much in the way of actual quips.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:57:55 PM by AlleyOop

LDragon2 Since: Dec, 2011
#38396: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:58:24 PM

In that regard, I feel that Whedon should have been reeled in a bit more in terms of his writing.

Come to think of it, Cross was a much better Ultron.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38397: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:59:24 PM

I admit I was conflating the general quip problem I have with the antagonist issue I had. Ultron and Loki were the only quippy villains because Whedon's movies had everyone quipping and I mixed the 2.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#38398: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:59:51 PM

Nothing Ultron did in the movie felt threatening. He never felt like he intimidated anyone, and no one treated him like something to be feared or something dangerous. Even at the party where he's first introduced and it's supposed to be tense and creepy, everyone's reactions felt more "The fuck is this bullshit" than "What the FUCK."

My various fanfics.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38399: Jul 20th 2015 at 6:01:18 PM

[up][up][up]Funny thing is, Cross has many aspect of Ultron here. Son-like relationship with Pym, suit whose helmet actually ressemble Ultron's face, sociopathic... I can't help but wonder if that was intentional.

[up]True. Sad because the trailer really made a good job at making him look creepy.

edited 20th Jul '15 6:02:48 PM by Theokal3

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38400: Jul 20th 2015 at 6:01:43 PM

Which is interesting because he's one of the only villains to actually kill someone and they stay dead.


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