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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38351: Jul 20th 2015 at 4:48:18 PM

I'm hoping Wakanda will look like the African equivalent of Crystal Spires and Togas. Traditional designs placed on advanced technology. Levitating platforms with sigils carved into them. Elaborate glowing stelae. Maybe even full-blown vibranium mechs and powered armors with sleek and organic designs like the ones seen in The Five Star Stories or Vision of Escaflowne. It's a fantastic opportunity for Scenery Porn.

Soooo essentially you want Wakanda to have Eldar/Protoss-like technology?^^

More seriously that sounds like a good idea. Definitely better than what I saw the most with them.

Civil War will have a much "simpler" story than Age of Ultron and they specifically contrast it with the disjointed series of subplots AOU had. So that's good at least.

Good indeed, though I still wonder how they will pull that out. Particularly how they will solve the conflict. Will they have an actual winner, or use an option to force the two to make up like the video game did?

Also, finally saw Ant-Man. Definitely one of the better Marvel movies, and far superior to AOU. Who would've thought that the power to shrink and control ants could be such an awesome power?

I know, right?^^ I already liked Antman and even I was amazed by how cool they made his powers look. On a note, I take it you didn't like Age of Ultron much?

edited 20th Jul '15 4:53:22 PM by Theokal3

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38352: Jul 20th 2015 at 4:54:34 PM

And I notice that you keep trying to justify Pym's actions by saying, "Other superheroes did different things, so that means anything Pym does is super justified because he's a superhero." Stop basing your argument so heavily around Protagonist-Centered Morality and the "But he did it first!" defense and argue the situation on its own merits.

I'm not saying it was justified, I was saying that you are bashing Pym for doing the exact same things as other superheroes, except you apparently believe those other superheroes had some sort of authority and were thus justified.

Also, you aren't using Protagonist-Centered Morality correct: PCM is when everything, even the universe itself, comports to the protagonist's point of view. Everything they see as bad is bad, etc.

Except Pym is not the protagonist. Scott Lang is the protagonist. And Darren Cross is, undeniably, bad. The fact that Pym destroyed all the research is seen as good, because if it got out into the world, anyone could use it.

Also, you keep saying "all weapons can kill," but no: when guns kill someone, they leave a body behind (the Pym Particles don't). Guns are also regulated. You can't just sell guns to other countries. Hell, selling weapons to other countries is illegal if the US prohibits it. And the Pym Particles were a new, deadly weapon that had never been seen before, unlike any other weapon beforehand. It wasn't just "some weapon."

Furthermore, science does not work that way no matter how much deranged extremists want it to. Someone else will discover the Particle, and after Pym blows them up too, someone else will come along. You can't just put a stopper in scientific research.

You can if you are the only one who discovered it. It's clear that Cross only recreated it because he learned from Pym himself. Anyone else would not be able to discover it at all.

I'm sorry, but all of your arguments still don't hold any water.

edited 20th Jul '15 4:56:16 PM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38353: Jul 20th 2015 at 4:54:58 PM

Also, speaking of being forced out as CEO, you know who else was forced out of his leadership role in his company? Tony Stark!

Obadiah Stane filed an injunction against him in response to his declaration that Stark Industries will no longer be making weapons. An injunction is a legal order forbidding the party from engaging in a particular act - in this case, operating in his capacity as CEO of the company. Like Cross, Stane managed to kick Stark out of his own company and seize full control for the purpose of his arms deals.

Unlike Pym, Tony and Pepper's response to this was limited to whistleblowing Stane's illegal activity to federal authorities, and the situation only escalated to requiring a superhero response when Stane attempted to murder Stark and then flee with the Iron Monger.

[up] Yes, weapons are heavily regulated. What's your point? Are you of the assumption that, once the technology is revealed to the world, the government would turn its head and make no effort whatsoever to regulate it?

Also, Pym discovered it without having someone else teach him of its existence. If a thing can be invented, it can be reinvented. That's just science.

edited 20th Jul '15 4:56:56 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38354: Jul 20th 2015 at 4:58:13 PM

Unlike Pym, Tony and Pepper's response to this was limited to whistleblowing Stane's illegal activity to federal authorities, and the situation only escalated to requiring a superhero response when Stane attempted to murder Stark and then flee with the Iron Monger.

Huh? No, that took place within a matter of hours. Tony and Pepper didn't get the evidence and say "Oh, we should go to SHIELD with this." No, Pepper got the evidence, then found Agent Coulson while she was still in the building.

Oh, and when Stane died, Tony became CEO again! So now that Cross is dead, Pym's probably CEO too, right?

Yes, weapons are heavily regulated. What's your point? Are you of the assumption that, once the technology is revealed to the world, the government would turn its head and make no effort whatsoever to regulate it?

"Once the technology was revealed" it would be too late. Hydra and other terrorist organizations would have gotten their hands on it already. You are saying "Oh, it's just another weapon," but no, it's a new technology that nobody knows about yet. "You can't just bomb a weapons factory" you say, but guess what? If it's an illegal weapons factory, that's exactly what the US government does. Pym simply didn't trust the government to destroy it and not take it for themselves.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:02:08 PM by alliterator

LDragon2 Since: Dec, 2011
#38355: Jul 20th 2015 at 4:59:58 PM

AOU was entertaining, but in hindsight, I feel that it was one of the weaker MCU entries, mainly because not much happens in it aside from the ending. The first film was so epic because all the Phase 1 films were leading up into it, making the payoff all that more satisfying. This one didn't have that advantage, and as a result, just doesn't feel as strong.

That, and the Executive Meddling that took place behind the scenes (why on Earth was the studio so against the scenes on Hawkeye's farm and Scarlet Witch's visions?), and the fact that it got too complicated for its own good despite not much happening until the end. It also caused many critics and viewers to turn their backs on the MCU, saying that it restricts creative visions and is too formulaic, so that is part of my problem with it as well.

On the contrary, Ant-Man is a much smaller and more personal film, and as a result, it doesn't get bogged down by too many complicated sub-plots and the like. Plus, it has a much stronger villain, better treatment of its female lead, and is overall much more creative in its action scenes and the like.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:44:47 PM by LDragon2

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38356: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:01:12 PM

...are you kidding me with this?

Stane's death had nothing to do with the injunction against Tony being removed. That's not how law or business works. That's completely asinine.

I really do think you have a lot to learn about the world before this conversation will be able to go anywhere.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:01:47 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#38357: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:01:33 PM

Pym was kicked voted out of the board of directors, so... no? And anyway, CEO of what? It seems to me like they pretty much destroyed the whole enterprise.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38358: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:03:02 PM

Stane's death had nothing to do with the injunction against Tony being removed. That's not how law or business works. That's completely asinine.

I'm guessing without Stane, Stark was able to get the board to put him back as CEO. And I'm guessing without Cross, Pym is able to get the board to put him back as CEO. It's exactly the same.

[up] I doubt Pym only had one building to his company.

I really do think you have a lot to learn about the world before this conversation will be able to go anywhere.

Thank you for continuing to insult me. That's a great strategy. Really. "You should learn about the world, kid. You don't know enough about anything." Thank your Ad Hominem attacks.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:05:24 PM by alliterator

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#38359: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:04:47 PM

Why would they put him back? There's no indication that Cross was the only thing standing in his way, presumably he wouldn't have got voted out unless most of the board of directors didn't want him around.

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38360: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:04:56 PM

@L Dragon 2: I like your analysis of these two movies^^ and yes, Hope definitely is one of their best success when it comes to female characters (I'll probably get gutted for saying this but I found their treatment of Black Widow and Gamora... kinda disappointing).

And yeah, problem with Age of Ultron is, the trailer made it appear like Ultron was gonna be a big change. Like he was going to make a global invasion, or something. Instead he pulled a plan that failed. As a friend of mine said, this movie kinda felt like a filler in the MCU. A good filler, but a filler regardless.

Just curious, do you have an opinion on the Black Widow/Banner romance?

edited 20th Jul '15 5:05:36 PM by Theokal3

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38361: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:11:30 PM

Yikes, let's not call any of the movies not related to the Infinity Gauntlet plot Filler. That's really not what Filler means in the first place and these movies don't all have to revolve around it.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38362: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:14:16 PM

The injunction against Stark had just been filed. Outing Stane's activities would discredit every argument he'd made against Stark to the board of directors.

Pym had been outed for long enough that Cross was about to start proposing renaming the company. Additionally, we get no evidence that Pym had a life-changing disaster after leaving S.H.I.E.L.D. that caused him to behave erratically at work, so it's entirely likely he was fired on his own merits, not because of a massive PR disaster influenced by PTSD.

Meanwhile, unlike Stark Industries, Pym Industries just had their corporate servers annihilated with extreme prejudice, making reconstruction virtually impossible without spending so much money that they still wind up bankrupting the company anyway.

There is nothing "the same" about their circumstances, or any of the other comparisons you've tried to make.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:15:28 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38363: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:21:18 PM

[up][up]True. My bad. But still, the fact remain Ultron didn't feel like the threat he should have been. In fact he almost took a sit back to the Gem of Infinity subplot. He was there to give the movie an antagonist rather than the movie being actually about him.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#38364: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:21:37 PM

I don't know if I'd call Hope a particularly successful character... I mean, the character as written and acted is fine, but the narrative does not do well by her. I, like Tobias, found myself constantly questioning: Yeah, why can't she just be the hero when she's so obviously better qualified for the job?" The movie gets into an almost Puma Man or Lone Ranger-esque situation where a secondary character seems like by all rights she should be the protagonist, but is shunted aside in favour of a designated White Male Lead.

And yes, I know the in-universe reasons for it, and no, I'm not going to say Hank Pym is misogynistic. But the fact remains that the writers had this cool character, and then instead of letting her shine they wrote in all these excuses for her not to get in on the action. That doesn't impress me very much. I know they're teasing that she'll become Wasp later, but why do we have to wait until Ant-Man 2, or some glorified cameo in the next Avengers movie? Why can't she just be the Wasp now?

I'm not a big fan of Gamora either, now that you mention it. I haven't watched Age of Ultron, so I can't comment on how they treated Black Widow or Scarlet Witch there.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38365: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:22:23 PM

I can agree with that. Ultron works enough for me, but I think he could have been better.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38366: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:23:20 PM

The injunction against Stark had just been filed. Outing Stane's activities would discredit every argument he'd made against Stark to the board of directors.

Except they didn't "out" Stane's activities. Coulson even said that Stane's disappearance had been taken care of it. Nobody knew what Stane was doing.

And as for Pym's oust he said that the deciding vote was his own daughter. Presumably, she will now vote for him (or herself) to become the new CEO.

Meanwhile, unlike Stark Industries, Pym Industries just had their corporate servers annihilated with extreme prejudice, making reconstruction virtually impossible without spending so much money that they still wind up bankrupting the company anyway.

You have no idea how much money Pym or Pymtech has, so you have no idea if that's true or not. You are just making stuff up now.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:23:43 PM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38367: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:23:56 PM

I loved Ultron, but he definitely felt more like a minion than the main plot runner.

Still, the character holds a special place in my heart for being an AI that could almost certainly pass the Turing Test.

[up] ...you're really going to accuse me of "making stuff up" for applying real-world economic principles to the most disastrous corporate scenario imaginable in the same post that you claim that Pym is CEO now on grounds that they probably would make him CEO 'cause reasons?

edited 20th Jul '15 5:26:20 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#38368: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:25:24 PM

He was the worst thing about that movie. Which was really disappointing, because he was the thing I was the most excited about, literally until someone posted the clip of him and the twins meeting Stark, Cap, and Thor in South Africa.

I believe my exact words were even "For fuck's sake. One. One villain that doesn't make quips. That's all I want."

My various fanfics.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38369: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:27:08 PM

[up] Malekith, Ronan, the Red Skull....

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38370: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:27:15 PM

Another reason I liked Cross. No quips, just pointed threats and Chewing the Scenery at one point.

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#38371: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:28:50 PM

Leaving everything else aside, there's no guarantee that the current board of directors is the same as when Pym got voted out. Just because Hope has had a change of heart, it in no way guarantees that she'll be able to get him voted back in.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#38372: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:29:20 PM

[up][up][up]Ronan and Red Skull were two of the only villains I really liked for that exact reason. Malekith wasn't even on screen long enough to quip or not. They had to give that screentime to Loki and, guess what, quips.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:29:33 PM by SonOfSharknado

My various fanfics.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38373: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:30:20 PM

...you're really going to accuse me of "making stuff up" for applying real-world economic principles to the most disastrous corporate scenario imaginable in the same post that you claim that Pym is CEO now on grounds that they probably would make him CEO 'cause reasons?

He would become CEO because he was CEO before Cross. Or his daughter would become CEO, since she was a board member, too. I was extrapolating based on what was on-screen. But what you said was that Pymtech didn't have the money to restore the company, which has no validity in anything we saw on screen. We literally have no idea how much money Pym or Pymtech has.

So you used an argument with no evidence, i.e. "making stuff up."

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38374: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:30:53 PM

Cross seemed needlessly Card-Carrying Villain to me. They tried to Hand Wave it by implying his brain had been altered by the Pym Particles and that was why he was such a cartoonishly over-the-top Saturday Morning villain, but that implication doesn't really work because Cross is incredibly responsible with his experiments. He stays outside of the room and experiments on lab animals until he's confident he's got something that can work for human exposure.

And even then, he only puts on the Yellowjacket himself out of desperation rather than just being like, "Well, time to experiment on myself!" Cross was actually quite reasonable in his business practices when he wasn't twirling his moustache For the Evulz.

[up] Seriously. That's not how business works.

edited 20th Jul '15 5:31:37 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#38375: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:31:38 PM

@Theokal3

Maybe not so much in Iron Man 2 and the Avengers films, but I thought how Black Widow was portrayed in The Winter Soldier was very good. I agree that Gamora was pretty underwhelming, though I liked Nebula.


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