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Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM
Seriously, research how military works, because no part of the Helicarrier battle was illegal. Research criminal law while you're at it.
The only reason Hydra even had an opportunity to receive the technology in the first place is because Pym sat on his information for however long it took to train Scott to use the Ant-Man suit. He gets no points for the fact that the weapons deal had finally begun to take place when he went through with his plan to destroy the entire company and all of its research. He had all the time in the world to report what he knew to the proper authorities.
Pym saved no lives by bombing the building. The building was not a threat to anyone. The existence of a weapon isn't even a threat to anyone. The only thing dangerous about the situation were the people who wanted to use that weapon, and there was plenty of time to have them apprehended well before the situation escalated to that point. Pym's grudge was toward the existence of the weapon itself, and anything short of the complete annihilation of every last trace of its existence was unacceptable for him.
No, what I'm opposed to is Protagonist-Centered Morality, which the defense of Pym on the grounds that he was The Good Guy and therefore all of his actions are justifiable has in spades.
In addition to just generally being a disgusting human being with no redeemable qualities, Pym far overshot the margin of what's acceptable behavior for a man in his position - especially in regard to a situation that wasn't even actively threatening anybody until long after he premeditated his violent overreaction to it.
edited 20th Jul '15 3:16:07 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.![]()
SHIELD is not a military organization. SHIELD is spy organization.
Pym saved no lives by bombing the building. The building was not a threat to anyone. The existence of a weapon isn't even a threat to anyone. The only thing dangerous about the situation were the people who wanted to use that weapon, and there was plenty of time to have them apprehended well before the situation escalated to that point. Pym's grudge was toward the existence of the weapon itself, and anything short of the complete annihilation of every last trace of its existence was unacceptable for him.
Yeah, so? And? He eliminated all traces of the weapon so it could never be used. That sounds to me like a good thing.
This is pretty much exactly like Cap destroying the Helicarriers. The Helicarriers weren't a threat - it was the people on the Helicarriers. And he could have simply shut the Helicarriers down and apprehended the people on them.
edited 20th Jul '15 3:18:43 PM by alliterator
@Tobias- That's kind of funny because I've had a huge issue with how the universe bends itself so that Tony is always right and well intentioned. Funny in the sense that it seems like you hate Pym for the same reasons I hate Tony.
Re the Cap situation, it's certainly legal for Cap and co. to stop the Helicarier/otherwise prevent HYDRA from committing mass murder.
However, I don't think soldiers possess some kind of inherent legal right to civil disobedience, which I thought was a connotation of your argument about Cap being a soldier. I mean in the specific instance, there really was an evil fifth column movement trying to take over America/the World, but lots of crazy people have believed in such a thing and that doesn't provide a legal defense for them undertaking violent actions.
Edit- I also wonder about if this discussion is also tied to genre issues. What I mean is that besides Pym being a troubled/misanthropic guy, part of the reason why he does all this illegal stuff is because it's a heist movie. There would be no movie if he just called the police on Cross within the first five minutes.
edited 20th Jul '15 3:24:40 PM by Hodor2
So you're arguing that civilians should be allowed to bomb any company that produces weapons?
All weapons are dangerous. That doesn't mean that blowing up defense contractors or people trying to become such would be okay. The fact that a weapon exists is not, in and of itself, sound justification for destroying the company that designed it. Neither is the fact that the CEO of said company is trying to sell the weapon to terrorists. It is never justified for civilians to plant bombs inside an office building, for any reason, ever.
Darren Cross was an awful sociopath who needed to be taken down, but neither Pym Industries nor the Yellowjacket were inherently evil. Pym crossed the line when he chose to attack the entire company instead of just Cross.
While Stark is my favorite superhero, I totally understand why people have a problem with him. If it was just that, I wouldn't have a problem with Pym. My problem is this:
- PYM: I don't want to go to the Avengers because I don't trust Starks.
- ME: Alright, there are plenty of other fine law agencies you can go to.
- PYM: Instead, I want to handle this in-house.
- ME: ...well, that's a crime, but as long as you're planning to do the right thing with your vigilante actions, it's still within the legally dubious realm of superheroics.
- PYM: By blowing up the entire company.
- ME: You are now a supervillain.
Basically, if they had stuck to just being a Heist movie, I would have been fine with the morally dubious plan because, you know, Heist movie. But they didn't; they had to make it a bombing instead. The plan went too far to be defensible.
However, I don't think soldiers possess some kind of inherent legal right to civil disobedience, which I thought was a connotation of your argument about Cap being a soldier.
Ah. No, I was saying that it is both the right and responsibility of a soldier to investigate suspicions of terrorist conspiracy within their own ranks.
edited 20th Jul '15 3:29:57 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.So you're arguing that civilians should be allowed to bomb any company that produces weapons?
If the weapon was a shrinking device that could make someone into a glob of goo then yes.
All weapons are dangerous. That doesn't mean that blowing up defense contractors is okay. The fact that a weapon exists is not, in and of itself, sound justification for destroying the company that designed it. Neither is the fact that the CEO of said company is trying to sell the weapon to terrorists. It is never justified for civilians to plant bombs inside an office building, for any reason, ever.
You realize you are arguing against Captain America right now, right? Pym knew Cross was selling to terrorists. Cap knew Hydra was going to use the Helicarriers. Neither one had the authority to act on it, but both did. Pym got everyone evacuated and imploded the building. Cap sabotaged the Helicarriers so that they would shoot at each other and crash.
Both of them endangered innocent people. You just don't care about Cap because he's the "ultimate soldier" so he apparently has all the authority to do whatever he wants. Except he doesn't. He had no authority to destroy those Helicarriers - again, he could have simply had them shut down, not destroyed.
Pym, on the other hand, didn't want weapons of destruction to get out, so destroyed them. Tony Stark did the same thing except his weapons had already gone out. He had no authority to go into other countries and kill terrorists. He did it anyway because they were using his weapons.
Let me put it another way: what if Tony Stark had found out about Stane before he sold the weapons? But Stane forced him out from his position as CEO. Stane would have sold all those Stark weapons and Tony couldn't do anything. What would Tony do? He would have done the same thing as Pym.
Also, trying to argue that "in the real world, blah blah" doesn't really work because this is a movie. This isn't the real world.
edited 20th Jul '15 3:33:47 PM by alliterator
RE SHIELD, it is international, but it's pretty understandable to think of it as American because we mostly only see American personnel, and because it's written in a way that evokes American organizations/current political controversies.
My impression is that SHIELD actually started as an American organization but turned into a UN Superpower. As I understand it, the predecessor group, SSR was American operated, even though it had an international focus (FDR started it and in Agent Carter, it seems to be tied with the FBI). At some point, Peggy expanded the SSR into SHIELD- which explains why SHIELD still uses the SSR's American Eagle logo.
SSR seems to be a fictional equivalent to the OSS
, which was a predecessor of the CIA, but also started out with an international focus. There's also definitely some inspiration from the United Nations, which the United States had a big role in founding, but is also obviously international. Hence why there's a "World Security Council".
edited 20th Jul '15 3:39:25 PM by Hodor2
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It's alright, let's just continue the conversation in parallel. But since we are mentionning Black Panther, I would like to say a few things about his movie.
Personally, there are quite a few things I am wondering about the Black Panther movie. Like how will they despict Wakanda? The country has always been despicted as technologically advanced while being still very much into traditions, but it was often unclear how much of each it was. I am curious to see how they would do that. Hopefully they can find actual Africa expert so they won't fall into annoying stereotypes. There will also be the issue of not despicting the country as too much of a Mary Suetopia, as this often happens: Wakanda needs to be despicted with respect and as a more than averagely advanced nation, but not without its issues.
Regardless, the movie shouldn't be hard to make unique. So far, we had movies about a superhero rich weapon-maker, movies about a superhero soldier later turned secret agent, a superhero monster movie, fantasy-esque shakespearian movies about a god superhero, a superhero space opera (with talking racoon and tree for good measure) and a superhero heist movie. Black Panther will be a superhero movie about a friggin' king. Shouldn't be hard to make it interesting and original.
Now, for his role in the Civil War... frankly I am already wondering how they will do the Civil War. Right now I have no idea who will be on which side, safe for a few obvious (like Falcon, who will obviously be with Cap). So for Black Panther? Difficult to say. I am kinda agreeing with those who think he will be on his own side, with both the other two tryin to negociate an alliance with him. Alternatively, it's possible he appears as something completely unrelated to the Civil War, the same way his old pal Klaw-sorry, Klaue- shew up in Age of Ultron. Who knows, maybe he will appear and try to take Cap's shield saying it belongs to his people.
edited 20th Jul '15 4:12:29 PM by Theokal3
The equivalency you keep pushing for does not work.
Iron Man attacked the terrorists who were actively using his weapons to threaten innocent lives.
Captain America attacked the terrorists who were actively using the Helicarriers to threaten innocent lives.
Pym attacked the company that manufactured the Yellowjacket to prevent their CEO from selling the weapon to terrorists. No lives were being actively threatened, and an overwhelming majority of people who will suffer for this action had nothing to do with it.
Do you know what the economical impact of blowing up a corporate headquarters is? Pym Industries has been in business for decades which means it's had ample time to grow its business. That giant server room? That room was gigantic because that's a corporate server room. Everything the business does is stored on those servers.
That was entirely the point of attacking the building in the first place: to destroy the Yellowjacket research, which is stored on the corporate server. But the Yellowjacket isn't the only thing stored on the server; every product the company makes is in there. Every research development, every engineering design, every advertising record and marketing analysis and executive business plan, it's all in those servers.
Pym Industries as a company lives and breathes on those servers. The building itself houses dozens, possibly even hundreds of employees including their corporate leadership, the Board of Directors. This building serves a vital purpose. It is the heart and brain of the entire organization.
Without the building, recovery would be hard but not impossible. Corporate HQ can be relocated. But with the servers fried, then exploded, then shrank into the Quantum Realm or whatever that singularity effect was, Pym Industries is dead in the water. It would cost so much to rebuild the entire thing from scratch that even in the best case scenario, they're looking at massive layoffs. They can't even sell their assets to a competitor because the assets their competitors would be interested were stored in those servers.
Tomorrow morning, potentially hundreds of thousands of people are going to wake up to find that they are no longer employed. Countless lives have been ruined by Pym's decision to take out his grievance not only on Cross, but on the entire organizational chart.
That's the part where this does parallel Cap's decision to disband S.H.I.E.L.D. The difference here being, S.H.I.E.L.D. was so heavily infiltrated that it's impossible to tell who was crooked and who isn't. At Pym Industries, the only person who deserved what happened to him was Cross.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Yeah, you keep saying that, but I don't see it. Pym actively took down the company as soon as he knew Cross was selling the weapons. He knew Cross was selling the weapons to bad people and he didn't want the weapons to get out. Destroying the company meant that Cross couldn't use any of the research he had done if he got away.
You're objection appears to be "Oh, he was only selling the weapons, not using them." Which is a load of horse apples. Once the weapons were sold, they would have been used almost immediately. Pym was preventing deaths by stopping the sale.
As for the rest of your object: so? Same thing happened to SHIELD, except SHIELD was declared a terrorist organization and the remnants either had to turn themselves in or go on the run. The people who worked at Pymtech may be out of a job, but hey, Pym has control of his company now, so he can just rehire them, if he wants to.
I also notice that you keep on trying to pile stuff onto Pym and how terrible he is, but really, he's pretty much the same as Tony Stark, except Pym was forced out from being the CEO of his company.
edited 20th Jul '15 4:27:58 PM by alliterator
On the subject of blanking the servers, what exactly was the point of doing that when the whole building, servers and all, was going to literally implode once the lemon-flavored Pym Particles were disturbed?
Anyway, I'm staying out of this argument for the most part because it strikes me as incredibly silly, but I will say this: I don't see any reasonable way for Pym to fully erase the Yellowjacket research WITHOUT completely destroying the whole building, terrorism or not. He had to destroy all those Pym Particles to ensure that no sample remains to be reverse engineered or otherwise exploited, and the end result of that can only be a building implosion. Even then a HYDRA goon made off with a sample.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!![]()
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I'm hoping Wakanda will look like the African equivalent of Crystal Spires and Togas. Traditional designs placed on advanced technology. Levitating platforms with sigils carved into them. Elaborate glowing stelae. Maybe even full-blown vibranium mechs and powered armors with sleek and organic designs like the ones seen in The Five Star Stories or Vision of Escaflowne. It's a fantastic opportunity for Scenery Porn.
edited 20th Jul '15 4:44:02 PM by AlleyOop
Civil War will have a much "simpler" story than Age of Ultron
and they specifically contrast it with the disjointed series of subplots AOU had. So that's good at least.
And some part (presumably the stinger)
will act as set up for Thor: Ragnarok.
...that's not how business works. You don't keep what you kill. Pym was already forced out as CEO; he doesn't get to become CEO of the pile of rubble that will never a salvageable company again, just because Cross died. Even if he does, there is little value in being CEO of a bankrupt organization. So no, he can't just rehire everyone who lost their jobs because Pym Industries cannot survive the annihilation of the entire corporate server room. "Just rehire the people who lost their jobs when the company went under," is economical reasoning right up there with "The country's in debt, so just print more money."
You keep trying to claim that Pym has the right to just ignore whatever laws he wants and hurt whoever he wants because he's the good guy, but that's just not so. There is no defense for Pym's premeditated destruction of an entire company on grounds that an illegal arms deal was going to take place. Cross was a villain, but Pym went so far off the deep end in combating him that he's no better than Cross.
And I notice that you keep trying to justify Pym's actions by saying, "Other superheroes did different things, so that means anything Pym does is super justified because he's a superhero." Stop basing your argument so heavily around Protagonist-Centered Morality and the "But he did it first!" defense and argue the situation on its own merits.
Any weapon can be used to kill people. That's what weapons are for. Seriously, the "too dangerous to exist" argument can be applied to any company that produces so much as a handgun. Countless technologies exist today that can kill people in horrific ways. It's bullshit of the highest order. "Nuclear reactors are okay, but Pym Particles MUST BE DESTROYED."
Furthermore, science does not work that way no matter how much deranged extremists want it to. Someone else will discover the Particle, and after Pym blows them up too, someone else will come along. You can't just put a stopper in scientific research.
edited 20th Jul '15 4:50:37 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Looks like they are learning from what worked and what didn't work in AOU.
Also, finally saw Ant-Man. Definitely one of the better Marvel movies, and far superior to AOU. Who would've thought that the power to shrink and control ants could be such an awesome power? I think it's my favorite film of the summer alongside Mad Max Fury road, and it is about on par with Iron Man 1 in terms of my favorite Marvel films.
I also thought Hope Van Dyne was one of the stronger female characters in the MCU, and her Wasp suit design looks wicked sick. Not sure why the folks on Tumblr are complaining that much. She is gonna be in future films as The Wasp after all.
And while Cross was a bit generic, he was also one of, in my opinion, the most frightening villains in the MCU. The way he ruthlessly murdered that one Pym employee and was willing the harm a little girl was absolutely chilling. Basically, he was everything that Ultron should have been. Not sure why he gets criticism in reviews aside from his rather generic motivation, which I admit, does get a bit tiring from these films. I really wouldn't mind seeing a more fleshed out bad guy from one of these MCU films soon. However, Cross works well enough that I don't mind his role in the film.
So The Stinger implies that Ant-Man is gonna be on the side of Captain America huh? I guess that makes sense. After all, Pym really doesn't seem to hold Tony Stark in high regard.

S.H.I.E.L.D. was a military organization. It conducted itself in a military capacity. That it was a fictional organization is no grounds for ignoring military protocol in favor of making up whatever rules suit your argument.
SHIELD being a fictional international organization means that it's rules are whatever the writers want them to be. It's not the US military.
As for the rest of what you said: wrong. Once again, Cap and the others may have the moral authority, but they lack the legal authority. If Winter Soldier was true to life, they would all have been arrested as soon as the police arrived. It doesn't matter if they saved lives - they caused a shit ton of destruction, killed a bunch of people without authority, and brought down an international organization. Sure, it was the right thing to do, but it was still illegal as hell.
And, once again, Pym was saving lives by destroying the research. Cross was selling to terrorists - sure, nobody was in immediately danger, but as soon as the terrorists got their hands on the weapons, they were going to use them.
Your argument holds zero water.