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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#38276: Jul 20th 2015 at 11:19:12 AM

[up][up]Yeah if you were actually watching the fight it wasn't much of a curbstomp battle

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38277: Jul 20th 2015 at 11:26:02 AM

How do you feel about Dr. Strange going deeper into the realms which man is not supposed to comprehended and eventually bring out an Abstract Being? It's clear Marvel is changing genres for a cosmic horror story - the giant space whales that forever haunt Tony, average Joes popping up as Inhumans, and a reality that can drive you mad

Very enthousiastic, actually. I have never actually read Dr Strange (specific comic books are harder to find in France), but I am a big fan of magic and cosmic horror stories, so I look forward seeing Marvel's take on it.

@Eagal: Thank you for suggesting a new topic^^ and to answer you: if I had to guess, I would say Black Panther would start out as a neutral party who both sides try to convince to their cause.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#38278: Jul 20th 2015 at 11:40:38 AM

I just hope they do the Dread Dormammu justice.

Either save him for the sequel so he doesn't have to share a plot with Strange's origin, like Red Skull, Ronan, and Cross suffered from, or make him a Bigger Bad who is invoked by Baron Mordo but doesn't actually appear in person until the stinger, in a "Fine, I'll do it myself!"-esque moment.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38279: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:03:51 PM

In Iron Man 2, Stark gives Rhodey the suit that becomes War Machine. At the end of the film, he attempts to take Nick Fury up on his offer to join the Avengers Initiative.

In Winter Soldier, Fury mentions that Stark gave them some recommendations on their Helicarrier engines which is why the Insight carriers appear to be powered by Arc Reactors.

No, it is not "obvious" that Tony is still refusing to work with the government by the end of Iron Man 2. He's been working with them to some extent ever since Iron Man 2's midway point and will almost certainly still be doing so in Civil War. Even in his Senate speech, he says as much, shouting to the camera, "I tried to play ball with these assholes!"

You are taking things out of context and then trying to apply the law in one case and not in another. Pym blowing up the building is illegal, yes. So is Captain America destroying the Triskelian — in fact, he didn't have a plan to evacuate the building then, either, did he? He just wanted the helicarriers to shoot each other and then crash. Without evidence that Hydra was even in control of SHIELD! I mean, doesn't that make Captain America a domestic terrorist, too? There were innocent people in Pymtech and there were innocent people in the Triskelian, too.

That is seriously reaching.

Cap didn't blow up the Triskelion. He performed a military coup by revealing the presence of Hydra in the facility, then worked alongside S.H.I.E.L.D. loyalists to bring down the Helicarriers that Hydra had infiltrated - a mission undertaken with full authorization from Director Fury, the highest ranking S.H.I.E.L.D. operative short of a man who had just been outed as a traitor in front of the entire organization.

In what universe is that in any way similar to a civilian blowing up businesses who engage in research he doesn't like?

edited 20th Jul '15 12:06:39 PM by TobiasDrake

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38280: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:10:05 PM

In Iron Man 2, Stark gives Rhodey the suit that becomes War Machine. At the end of the film, he attempts to take Nick Fury up on his offer to join the Avengers Initiative.

Nope. Rhodey took the suit. Without Tony's permission. At the end, Tony finally gave his permission to Rhodey. And only Rhodey (that's why nobody else has a suit in Iron Man 3). And what? He didn't try to take Nick Fury up on his offer. What scene you even talking about?

Also: Winter Soldier as a military coup? Yeah, you know that military coups are illegal, right? Also, at that point, Steve Rogers was a civilian. He wasn't working for SHIELD or the government. He was a civilian who sabotaged three helicarriers specifically so they would be shot down. How is that any better than Pym blowing up an empty building?

Seriously, you are trying to argue Pym's actions are worse than Cap's or Iron Man's or the Avenger's, but they aren't.

a mission undertaken with full authorization from Director Fury, the highest ranking S.H.I.E.L.D. operative short of a man who had just been outed as a traitor in front of the entire organization.

Director Fury was considered dead. Also, his authority was superceded by Secretary Pierce who hadn't been outed as a traitor when they started their attack on the Triskelian. What, was Cap supposed to just say "Oh, he's a traitor, believe me!" Oh, wait, that's what he did. He provided no evidence, he just said "believe me." And then he destroyed the helicarriers.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:12:31 PM by alliterator

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#38281: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:10:29 PM

[up][up]In the eyes of anyone without inside information of the coup.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:10:49 PM by vandro

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#38282: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:13:01 PM

Joblo rumors say Dormammu is co-villains with Baron Mordo for Dr. Strange.

As for Black Panther I imagine he's going to be completely divorced from the superhero conflict and just not care at all, considering Wakanda's isolationist nature. I don't know if Tony or Cap will actively try to woo him over, but he'll probably join each of them as alliance of convenience against threats if he thinks they can help him protect Wakanda from the greater threat. T'Challa isn't the following or everyman type like Spider-Man. He might learn to stand up against the Big Bad for the world's sake rather than just Wakanda's as a possible character arc, but I hope not because it would be too similar to Tony's.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:17:50 PM by AlleyOop

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38283: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:13:03 PM

Nope. Rhodey took the suit. Without Tony's permission. At the end, Tony finally gave his permission to Rhodey. And what? He didn't try to take Nick Fury up on his offer. What scene you even talking about?

When Tony meets with Fury afterwards, Fury and Widow point out that Stark has multiple contingencies preventing unauthorized access. It is physically impossible for anyone to walk down into the armory and just take a suit. When confronted on this, Stark dodges the question.

At the end of the film, Stark meets with Fury about the Avengers Initative, but is politely rejected; Fury reads out Stark's psych profile, which is hilarious, then tells him that because of his behavior over the course of the film, they would prefer to use him solely in a consulting capacity - which is where his relationship with S.H.I.E.L.D. is as of the start of the Avengers film.

Stark jests that S.H.I.E.L.D. can't afford him, then agrees to waive his fee in exchange for Senator Sterns's humiliating display in the final scene - in effect, agreeing to jump onboard the Avengers Initiative for free.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:13:47 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#38284: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:13:27 PM

Is it too inconceivable that Hank already suspected or deduced the HYDRA connection? He knew that Mitchell Carson was planning to buy the Yellowjacket suit. Carson was at SHIELD, which Hank knows damn well was infiltrated by HYDRA up to the heads of the organization. Given what he knows of Carson's recent activities about "taking out governments", it's hardly much of a leap to assume Carson was in on it.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38285: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:17:51 PM

[up][up] None of that in any way tells us that Stark is okay with selling his technology to the government. In fact, he still doesn't trust SHIELD in The Avengers - he hacks into their database and copies their files! In Iron Man 3, we see Rhodey still has the suit, but nobody else does, because Tony hasn't sold it or given it to anyone else in SHIELD or the government.

[up] He knew Mitchell Carson was in the business of "toppling countries" and worked with warlords.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:18:33 PM by alliterator

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38286: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:18:33 PM

Also: Winter Soldier as a military coup? Yeah, you know that military coups are illegal, right? Also, at that point, Steve Rogers was a civilian. He wasn't working for SHIELD or the government. He was a civilian who sabotaged three helicarriers specifically so they would be shot down. How is that any better than Pym blowing up an empty building?

Seriously, you are trying to argue Pym's actions are worse than Cap's or Iron Man's or the Avenger's, but they aren't.

No, at that point, Steve was a rogue agent. He discovered a conspiracy within his organization, revealed that conspiracy to the organization, and prevented said conspiracy from having access to weapons of mass destruction. The damage to the Triskelion is collateral damage from a S.H.I.E.L.D. operation led by the highest authority S.H.I.E.L.D. has, and everyone in the building was both informed of the situation and actively attempting to resolve it.

Cap has been with S.H.I.E.L.D. in an official capacity ever since he was unthawed. Since WWII, Steve was never a civilian until the organization disbanded.

This entire line of discussion is completely ridiculous. If you think Captain America was a civilian and Iron Man refused to aid a government organization at any point in his career, then go watch these movies again because there's no point I can make more prevalent than the fact that you are factually wrong.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:20:49 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#38287: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:19:33 PM

[up][up][up][up] Rhodey has authorized access. Tony's basement armory has an eye scanner and earlier in the film Rhodey is able to let himself in easily, which he later uses to grab a suit, knock Tony's drunk ass 'round the dance floor, and leave.

Also, a huge chunk of the weaponry he uses as War Machine seems to be stuff that was fitted on by the Army and Hammer when he first took it to them. I'm pretty sure in IM 3 it's the Army still keeping that suit up, hence the America flag colors.

[down] Eh, civilians are more defined by being non-combatants than by being government workers. By your definition mercenaries and terrorist groups would also be just civilians.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:30:03 PM by Watchtower

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38288: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:23:28 PM

This entire line of discussion is completely ridiculous. If you think Captain America was a civilian and Iron Man refused to aid a government organization at any point in his career, then go watch these movies again because there's no point I can make other than the fact that you are factually wrong.

I think you need to watch the movies again because Tony explicitly denies the government any use of his suits in the beginning of Iron Man 2. Rhodey ends up with one and then Tony authorizes that because he knows Rhodey, but that's it. He denies any other use of his suit beside himself.

Seriously, the whole point of the first movie is that Tony Stark doesn't want to sell weapons anymore. Then why would he give weapons to the US government? If you really think he would do that, you need to watch the movies again.

Oh, and Cap being a "rogue agent"? Yeah, that's exactly like saying he's a civilian. He doesn't work for SHIELD or the government. That means he is a civilian.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#38289: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:25:17 PM

Okay strictly speaking Cap isn't a civilian. Of course he's still a fugitive and a suspected terrorist so the truth significantly worse.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38290: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:33:46 PM

Attempt to disprove Tony's actions from the end of Iron Man 2 onward, after his development in Iron Man 2, by bringing up examples from before said development is obvious trolling.

As for Cap, he's a rogue agent because he uncovered a terrorist organization inside his military organization, and he remains so until he, alongside others from within his organization including the highest ranking member, reveals said terrorist organization, whereupon he proceeds to work with said military organization to bring down the terrorist organization.

FUN FACT: This is legal. The fact that Cap's actions were a response to a sinister conspiracy by a known terrorist organization makes it justifiable under military law. Every soldier has a responsibility to refuse commands given unjustly. Bringing down terrorist conspiracies that are attempting to usurp the organization's purpose is exactly the kind of behavior that is expected of a good soldier.

None of this in any way justifies civilians that decide to bomb companies for engaging in research they disapprove of. Even military don't get to just lob grenades at businesses unprovoked because the owner is guilty of crimes.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:35:45 PM by TobiasDrake

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38291: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:36:21 PM

FUN FACT: This is legal.

FUN FACT: sabotaging helicarriers so that, instead of say not shooting anything or just shutting them down, they shoot at each other and then crash, one of them into a building is perfectly legal?

Yeah, no it's not. Exposing a conspiracy is legal. What Cap and the others did was not legal at all.

Oh, and Tony's position in regard to giving his suits to the US government still hasn't changed at the end of Iron Man 2. There is nowhere where he states "Oh, okay, I guess I can sell multiple suits to the government." He gives one to Rhodey, because he trusts Rhodey. He still refuses to sell any of his suits to the government at all.

None of this in any way justifies civilians that decide to bomb companies for engaging in research they disapprove of. Even military don't get to just lob grenades at businesses unprovoked because the owner is guilty of crimes.

Of for fuck's sake. He didn't bomb them because of the research, he bombed them because he knew they going to be selling it to terrorists.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:37:42 PM by alliterator

Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38292: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:39:02 PM

Either save him for the sequel so he doesn't have to share a plot with Strange's origin, like Red Skull, Ronan, and Cross suffered from, or make him a Bigger Bad who is invoked by Baron Mordo but doesn't actually appear in person until the stinger, in a "Fine, I'll do it myself!"-esque moment.

That's more or less what I would do. I don't think it'd be realistic to have Dormammu killed because, well, considering what he is, he really cannot be killed, especially not in one movie. He can, on the other hand, be banned or prevented from entering in our world, so they really don't need to kill him.

Another villain who could do it in a first movie would be Nightmare. He is a big enough threat to make a movie, yet weak enough to be used as a starter.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38293: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:40:10 PM

Yes, destroying enemy vessels that are actively endangering the lives of millions of people is legal and expected behavior of a soldier. Those Helicarriers were a) Hydra-operated, which identifies them as terrorist weapons of mass destruction, and b) had thousands of guns pointed at civilians all across the city, with known intent to fire.

In addition to giving the government a suit, Tony's advice helped S.H.I.E.L.D. build the Insight Helicarriers. I'm going to keep repeating that every time you claim he's still bogarting his tech, because no amount of claims otherwise changes the fact that you are factually wrong.

Of for fuck's sake. He didn't bomb them because of the research, he bombed them because he knew they going to be selling it to terrorists.

If that were the case, he should have taken it to an authority. But he didn't, because he doesn't want anyone to have his research. Which is why he bombed Cross's company.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:41:18 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#38294: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:41:28 PM

Exxxxxxxcept for that delightful little part where SHIELD is not the U.S. government. And he's still not selling them weapons, but giving them advice on propulsion technology.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38295: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:42:07 PM

S.H.I.E.L.D. is a military institution beholden to government officials. That distinction is like saying that selling to the Marines is okay because they're not the government.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:42:26 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#38296: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:42:49 PM

Considering what happened last time Tony Stark got his hands on cutting edge technology he didn't understand, I've a hard time faulting Hank too much for not wanting to give him his research.

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#38297: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:44:46 PM

Except SHIELD is distinctly not an American organization.

Tony is still not sharing his tech with the U.S. government, because SHIELD is not an American organization in the MCU.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#38298: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:44:48 PM

And he's still not selling them weapons, but giving them advice on propulsion technology.

Repulsors have been weapons throughout all the Iron Man films. Pepper even calls them such.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:45:00 PM by Tuckerscreator

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#38299: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:46:15 PM

And given how Tony's been shown to handle his weapons being used? If SHIELD used the repulsors for anything other than propulsion, he'd be storming in there blowing shit up.

Label the man the son of Satan.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38300: Jul 20th 2015 at 12:50:12 PM

Tony didn't even "storm in and blow shit up" to retake control of his own company. Or when Rhodey ostensibly "stole" the War Machine suit from him.

Seriously, the only time he's done that was against terrorist organizations that were murdering people with his guns. If S.H.I.E.L.D. started making repulsor weapons and giving them to soldiers charged with keeping the peace and saving lives, Tony might be a bit miffed, but I doubt he'd go on a murderous rampage.

And he certainly wouldn't start planting bombs in S.H.I.E.L.D. laboratories.

edited 20th Jul '15 12:51:42 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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