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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Cross (Don’t ask)
#38226: Jul 20th 2015 at 3:37:43 AM

If they do managed to rescue Jan from the Quantum Realm, how do think she be mentally?

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#38227: Jul 20th 2015 at 4:40:07 AM

Well, for all we know time just stopped for her and she blanked it all out. She probably hasn't even aged since then.

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#38228: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:16:46 AM

Human mind apparently can't retain much of the quantum verse

edited 20th Jul '15 5:17:06 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#38230: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:42:46 AM

How would you even see anything ?

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#38231: Jul 20th 2015 at 5:56:05 AM

Same way you can breath. Pym Particles did it.

BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#38232: Jul 20th 2015 at 7:07:29 AM

On the whole what genre the movies should tackle next:

- Black Panther's story seems more like a Coming of Age drama based on the character's original appearance which deals with him avenging his father's death and accepting his role as king. Not sure if those types of movies are done to death in the movie universe. - This might sound crazy but what if Captain Marvel ends up being a subversion to Marvel's goal of having their movie be akin to a different genre other then super hero by making her movie a straight forward super hero movie? So in spirit of being Marvel's first attempt at portraying a solo super heroine movie, this one will play the super hero genre straight. - Inhumans is a bit tricky to pinpoint as Marvel already did sci-fi fantasy with Thor and straight up sci-fi with Iron Man (and Ant-Man, even though that is heist). . . . Maybe it can be a drama focusing on the characters relation with one another akin to Game of Thrones.

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38234: Jul 20th 2015 at 7:20:37 AM

My biggest problem with the film is the fact that Hank Pym is a thoroughly reprehensible character. The man driving the plot is an amoral, misogynistic terrorist.

We're introduced to Hank when he's quitting S.H.I.E.L.D. in a huff over what we later learn is the death of Jan; she gave her life in service to keeping the world safe and Hank metaphorically pissed on her grave by taking his ball and going home. This sets the stage for his entire beef with authority figures: he's mad because his wife did something incredibly heroic that saved millions of lives. Hank Pym is opposed to heroism.

Like Tony Stark, Pym learns that his company is up to shady dealings. Where Tony and Pepper took this information, broke into Stane's office, copied the incriminating data, and immediately passed it off to lawmen to pursue legal action against Stane, Pym instead sets to work on a plan to blow up Cross's entire company. This, mind you, is for the crime of attempting to create dangerous weapons for profit, something any military contractor is doing every day. Even Stark refrained from nuking Hammer Industries into rubble when the latter was attempting to reproduce the Iron Man. Hank Pym is a domestic terrorist.

To this end, he sets about a needlessly criminal plan of allowing his house to be burgled so that Scott will climb into the Ant-Man suit and shrink himself down, imperiling his life in a multitude of ways. Pym coldly, almost mockingly taunts the terrified Scott about how he better learn fast as dangers abound from every direction, showing an atrocious disdain for human life. Hank Pym is an amoral sociopath.

When Hope calls the police and has Scott arrested as an attempt to throw a wrench into her father's disrespect toward her - more on that below - Pym sends ants to bring the suit and break Hank out of prison in order to keep the plan moving. This is done in spite of the fact that, as the owner of the house that Scott was allegedly robbing, Hank could have just walked into the station and refused to press charges, and Scott would be released that day. Hank Pym engages in needlessly criminal activity for thrills.

When he's not plotting to plant bombs in businesses that engage in research he personally disapproves of, Pym can be found emotionally abusing his daughter. Despite her repeated objections to Hank's decision that her woman bits make her ill-suited to pilot the technology that she repeatedly demonstrated a great deal of proficiency with, Pym is insistent that she shut the f*ck up and let the men get to their manly business; at one point screaming at her that his word is law. Hank Pym is an abusive misogynist.

Despite repeatedly engaging in behavior that makes it clear that nothing good can come of working with this man, both Scott and Hope immediately forgive him every time he does something terrible. During a tense part of the film, Pym and Cross have this exchange:

  • CROSS: Why did you pick me?
  • PYM: Because I saw myself in you.
  • CROSS: Then why did you push me away?
  • PYM: Because I saw too much of myself.

And this statement could not be more accurate. If the purpose was to make Hank a flawed hero like most of the MCU's protagonists, they overshot the "flawed" part by a wide margin; as the second-most despicable person in the film, Pym is entirely lacking in heroic qualities, and is only able to play a protagonist role by having an even more reprehensible adversary to compete with.

edited 20th Jul '15 7:22:27 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38235: Jul 20th 2015 at 7:23:21 AM

Or they could tackle some social-political issue concerning the treatment of other countries by the superpowers of the world...that's at least what I expect it to be.

And Captain Marvel could be a straightforward army movie.

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#38236: Jul 20th 2015 at 7:38:21 AM

[up][up]I'm... pretty sure Hank wasn't opposed to heroism. He left because they were attempting to duplicate his research behind his back. He's a slightly unstable egotist then, exactly like Cross. I'm pretty sure that was the point.

The Jan thing couldn't have helped, but I don't think he necessarily begrudged anyone for that. He didn't even bring it up at that first scene. He only punched evil guy because he was being a douche about Jan dying.

And the ENTIRE scene with Scott and Hope in the car is establishing that Hank is rejecting Hope because he would rather not lose his daughter if something went terribly wrong. Emotionally distant and not a good father, I'll give, but your interpretation seems like a stretch. He never said that Hope was incapable. But Scott is expendable.

edited 20th Jul '15 7:42:24 AM by edvedd

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38237: Jul 20th 2015 at 7:42:15 AM

During his big storming out speech, Hank mentions slipping through Howard's lab and discovering the research on his way up. Given that everyone seems to have been assembled solely for Hank to tell them go f*ck themselves, this suggests his desire to storm out angrily predates his discovery of the Pym Particle knock-off.

edited 20th Jul '15 7:45:23 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#38238: Jul 20th 2015 at 7:44:23 AM

Well, the scene took place a year or two after the fact. Like I said, that probably didn't help, but he seems like not the most stable guy to begin with. And remember, he spent years afterwards studying the microverse trying to bring Janet back. Maybe that's why he left. Maybe he couldn't do it there. Maybe he couldn't stand to work there anymore and that was the last straw. The scene doesn't say.

edited 20th Jul '15 7:46:17 AM by edvedd

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38239: Jul 20th 2015 at 7:48:11 AM

If that was the reason for his departure, the film certainly did nothing to communicate it. Every time he talks about Starks and law organizations and etc., it's to complain about the importance of keeping his technology out of the hands of others. Hank Pym claims ownership over a process of physics and will bomb your institution into rubble if you disagree.

As for his treatment of Hope, men going to desperate lengths to protect women from making choices is classic misogyny. Scott's "I'm expendable" speech does nothing to change the fact that Hank is a screaming tyrant to his daughter and that Hope is 100% right; she could have solved the plot in five minutes if her father wasn't too busy yelling at her to Stay in the Kitchen while the men handle things.

By the end of the film, Hank finally learns to appreciate his daughter and accept that she is a competent user of the tech he developed, but that development comes so late as to be entirely useless to the film - it's in the stinger - and represents little more than another empty promise by Marvel, going, "Yes, we really only care about White Men in our movies, but maybe SOME DAY you'll get the female lead you keep asking for. Not today, but some day?"

edited 20th Jul '15 7:50:55 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
Darling.
#38240: Jul 20th 2015 at 7:52:32 AM

OK, it appears we have some very different points of view on this. Agree to disagree. Hank Pym was a bit of a dick even in the comics.

edited 20th Jul '15 7:54:46 AM by edvedd

Visit my Tumblr! I may say things. The Bureau Project
BigK1337 Since: Jun, 2012
#38241: Jul 20th 2015 at 8:00:33 AM

[up][up] That's a pretty interesting point you got there on how Hank's portrayal in the movie being an amoral, misogynistic terrorist. Would be a valid reason for declaring Hank a designated hero . . . if you forget the main reason why he does it: the Pym Particles are dangerous biz!

It true that such tech could change the future, however the film points out the many dangers in using it from the inhuman strength it gives the user to the damage it gives to a user's mental stability to Cross demo of the Yellowjacket to the entirety of the Quantum Realm.

Hank who is at the time still traumatized by Janet's death from using his Pym Particles to stop the missile know what happens when is tech is used beyond its core program (i.e. unchecked), and doesn't want that happening to anyone else. So his solution was to keep it hidden from the world obviously in the heat of grieve over his wife's death and mistrust in people.

His refusal of letting hope become Wasp ties closely to his wife going subatomic. Hope is his only daughter and realistically speaking, as father, do you want your child to be in great harm? Especially having them take up using a dangerous suit that could potentially either destroy your child's psyche or cause them to shrink to nonexistent and place them in a dangerous heist that could risk their live? Training or not, Hank already lost one love one; he is clearly not ready to do the same again.

And as for the terrorist bit, true I can agree with. His target? A very ambitious protegee who is obsess with his creation to the point of killing anybody or anything that would get in his way and has no qualm with selling said research to a terrorist organization intent on conquering the world! Seriously, this same shit can apply to Captain America when he destroyed a government organization; and yet he is consider a hero for it. Janet would totally not forgive Hank if he let his research fall in the hands of Nazis

So yeah, while I can certainly see why you think that way of him after the movie I have to argue that his reason for doing so aren't uncalled for.

edvedd Darling. from At the boutique, dear. Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: We finish each other's sandwiches
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#38243: Jul 20th 2015 at 8:13:51 AM

I think Douglas's performance makes Hank more likeable than he has any right to be when you put it like that. I could say the same for Cross — he is a horribly written character, but the actor almost manages to salvage something from the part, despite having nothing to work with.

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#38244: Jul 20th 2015 at 8:21:50 AM

[up]x10 I think you're reaching, like, a lot. Those conclusions don't really logically follow your 'evidence', not to mention it seems like you misread those scenes. He's not mad because his wife was hero. He's mad because SHIELD is using his using his formula without his permission. To your point about him blowing up a building because just Cross was selling weapons, it's important to remember that the Yellowjacket suit isn't your everyday weapon. Like Hank said, it literally changes the texture of reality. Also, Cross was selling the tech to Hydra, so there's that. To your point about him showing disdain for human life, do you really think he would let someone die? Also, that's probably the biggest logical leap in your post. To your point about Hank being a misogynist, he doesn't want Hope in the suit because she's a woman. He doesn't want her in the suit because he's afraid of losing like he lost Janet. I'm sure if Hope was instead Hank Pym Jr., Hank would still have felt the same way. Yes, there's the point about not letting her make her choice, but remember, it's Hank's suit. He gets to choose who wears it. I'm not necessarily saying he made the right choice, but it's his choice.

[up]x5 He doesn't claim ownership over a process of physics. He claims ownership over a chemical formula he developed. It's an important distinction because people can patent chemical formulas.

Make mine Marvel.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38245: Jul 20th 2015 at 8:28:24 AM

Literally everything that military contractors have ever made is a dangerous biz. Entire cities are powered by reactors today using technology whose first implementation was to annihilate two Japanese cities, killing millions of people.

"This bombing is acceptable because I am morally opposed to the behavior of the target being attacked," said every terrorist ever.

As for Hope, that Hank abused and disrespected her for her own protection doesn't make it better. It's actually part of the problem. It's called Men Are the Expendable Gender and it's heavily prevalent in film: the idea that women must be protected at all costs, even from the consequences of their own choices, because they are helpless snowflakes. Hank fuels this concept by declaring that because his wife died, his daughter - who, mind you, is the only reason Hank's even involved in this because she brought the problem to him - is ill-suited to use the technology she's already mastered in favor of some asshole he just found.

That 90% of Hope's dialogue in the film is spent vocalizing her disdain at her unbelievably insulting role in her father's plan serves only to call attention to how offensive the whole ordeal is toward her. She found out Cross was involved in shady dealings, she went to her father to make an action plan together, and her father turned around, told her to Stay in the Kitchen, and hired some asshole to do the plan with him instead.

[up] In addition to the points already made, Hank didn't know Cross was selling to Hydra until the plan was well underway. He got lucky with that one, and would have bombed Cross Industries even without that plot point. That was tacked on for the audience's benefit; it's an ad hominem against Cross to make Pym look more justified, because Pym's actions in a vacuum can't do the job.

The film actually spends a lot of time driving home the idea that Cross is, on a personal level, an absolute asshole so that the audience won't think too much about how reprehensible Pym's choices are.

edited 20th Jul '15 8:31:34 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38246: Jul 20th 2015 at 8:31:05 AM

Okay, seriously, Tobias Drake is having a major case of Ron the Death Eater here. Misogynistic, seriously? Based on what? Because he didn't want his daughter to put a suit that could kill her? Yeah, that's totally sexism and definitely not just him being afraid she will end up with the same fate. Also, as the others said before, Pym isn't against heroism: he is against his particles being used by SHIELD as weapons. And considering SHIELD has something of a record of trying to use potentially dangerous tech, I don't blame him for not trusting them. Now I won't deny he is somewhat mistanthropic and refuses to trust anyone but himself to use his research, but that doesn't make him despicable. Especially since you can't blame him for this and NOT blame Stark for refusing to give away the Iron Man armor to the government, because that's basically the same thing.

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#38247: Jul 20th 2015 at 8:31:52 AM

Of all the Stan Lee cameos, would AOU's be the longest?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38248: Jul 20th 2015 at 8:34:12 AM

The suit didn't kill Jan. Jan's choice to stop an ICBM from killing millions of people killed Jan. So saying that he didn't want Hope to put on a suit that could kill her is a stretch; he didn't want her engaging in the dangerous activity she wanted to engage in, and he didn't want her potentially making the same Heroic Sacrifice his wife made. He wanted to "protect" her from making choices that might be dangerous for her to make.

Stark did give away the Iron Man armor to the government. The Air Force has their own personal Iron Man because of him. He's also never launched a terrorist attack on anyone trying to build one of their own; both Stane and Hammer were handled by working in conjunction with the law.

Here's the problem with Cross: Nothing that Pym wants to nuke his company for is a crime. Murder is a crime. Selling weapons to terrorists is a crime. Developing weapons for military application? Not a crime, and of the three, that's the only one Pym knew about when he started his work.

edited 20th Jul '15 8:39:08 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#38249: Jul 20th 2015 at 8:36:52 AM

I've no doubt that the decision not to let Hope do the job herself is sexist. The question is whether it's in-universe sexism on Hank's part; or sexism on the part of the writers. Hank's reasoning can at best be described as "irrational", the only question is if it's a case of him being simply an Overprotective Dad, or an outright misogynist who doesn't want a woman getting involved.

TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#38250: Jul 20th 2015 at 8:44:37 AM

[up][up] Even if Hope were to avoid making a Heroic Sacrifice, there's always the possibility of the Pym Particles screwing with her brain like they did with Hank and Cross. Remember that even with the Ant-Man suit's protection, Hank was eventually affected by them due to his prolonged use of Pym Particles (and indeed, the only reason he didn't do the job himself is because he knew that doing so would drive his mind closer to madness). As mentioned before, the reason Scott was picked was that, despite his skills, he is expendable.

[up] This makes me wonder what would have happened if Hope were genderflipped.

edited 20th Jul '15 8:46:01 AM by TrashJack

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary

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