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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#38051: Jul 18th 2015 at 9:56:03 AM

Because the MCU loves it's militaristic Corrupt Corporate Executives with knockoff technology.

I definitely agree that Cross is a pale imitation of a character type we've already gotten at least three times before. I still say most of his problems would've been less... problematic... if they had played up his distinctive (for the MCU) Bond-villain traits or something.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38052: Jul 18th 2015 at 9:58:02 AM

His entire opening speech was basically, "I'm a bad guy! I'm a bad guy! Look at all these euphemisms for killing! I'm totally a bad guy!"

Which, you know, I'm perfectly fine with. Some villains deserve nuance. Darren Cross...isn't one of them.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38053: Jul 18th 2015 at 10:05:57 AM

Scott doesn't take the easy way. He fights against Cross, going subatomic in order to save his daughter (you say that it was his criminal activities that brought his daughter into danger — but seriously, Cross was selling stuff to Hydra, that's like blaming a superhero when their family is targeted by a supervillain).

It's more akin to blaming a criminal when his criminal activity crosses a rival crime lord who proceeds to attack his family in retribution.

Cross is a traitor and a ridiculously over-the-top Card-Carrying Villain, Pym is a domestic terrorist. They're more akin to rival crime organizations than a superhero/supervillain dynamic. If your daughter gets shot because you joined the Mafia, then maybe you shouldn't have joined the f*cking Mafia.

When your first act as a superhero is to get in a fistfight with the Avengers because they didn't appreciate your attempt to rob them, maybe you're not actually a superhero.

And it was a straight-up robbery. Scott makes a large fuss over the distinction between robbing and burgling early on so that there's no doubt when he beats up Falcon to steal Avenger hardware, it's a robbery - further cementing that his path of "redemption" is all about becoming a harder criminal.

edited 18th Jul '15 10:09:50 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38054: Jul 18th 2015 at 10:12:14 AM

Okay, so I guess you consider the Avengers a terrorist organization, right? I mean, they totally invaded Hydra's base and stuff. Or Captain America is a terrorist - he totally destroyed the Triskelion, where a lot of innocent people worked, didn't he?

edited 18th Jul '15 10:13:26 AM by alliterator

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#38055: Jul 18th 2015 at 10:14:05 AM

Why would the avengers be a terrorist organization, they are the world police! Oh wait, no that's the US...yeah, they are terrorist.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#38056: Jul 18th 2015 at 10:26:49 AM

By the end of the film it's clear that Scott isn't an Avengers type superhero, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, given the stinger, I'm hoping they play him more as that kind of "I know a guy" type of character. A fundamentally good but less-than-lawful group that other heroes would call in when you need some secret or clandestine objective done, without necessarily being outright espionage (which is Coulson's territory).

In any case, at the end Scott calls being Ant-Man "work" in a way that implies he's getting more use out of it in some way - so he's evidently doing something.

edited 18th Jul '15 10:28:32 AM by KnownUnknown

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38057: Jul 18th 2015 at 10:38:57 AM

Gonna see this soon. In about twenty minutes. Be back with my impressions.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#38058: Jul 18th 2015 at 10:41:07 AM

As previously noted, Cross's association with Hydra was only established long after Pym had set his plans into motion. As such, it had no bearing on Pym's decision to not only steal Cross's research, but to fry his servers and then nuke the building itself just for good measure.

Cross being a bad guy doesn't change the fact that Pym decided to bomb a corporate entity based solely on the fact that he didn't like what they were going to do with their research. What happens the next time someone discovers the Pym Particle? Is Pym going to rob and murder anyone who comes close to his research until age or the law finally catch up to him?

Lobbing grenades at companies who engage in research you disapprove of is terrorism, period.

edited 18th Jul '15 10:42:17 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38059: Jul 18th 2015 at 10:47:23 AM

[up] Also, as previously pointed out, Pym knew that Cross was selling that one ex-SHIELD guy who was associated with terrorists. He didn't know about Hydra, but he knew the technology would get into the hands of warlords.

As for what would happen if someone else discovered the technology? Well, that's actually happened in the Marvel universe...and Pym bought the company in order to keep the technology out of the wrong hands.

Lobbing grenades at companies who engage in research you disapprove of is terrorism, period.

So is destroying buildings? And invading other countries? But Captain America and the Avengers did that, too.

edited 18th Jul '15 11:08:18 AM by alliterator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#38060: Jul 18th 2015 at 10:53:05 AM

  • sigh* It looks like I have to leave this threat...I thought that everyone would be nice enough to put the Ant-Man discussion under spoiler tags for at least a week, but as it is, this has become a landmine for spoilers. And the movie hasn't been released in my country yet.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#38061: Jul 18th 2015 at 10:54:52 AM

[up][up] At the very least, spoiler tag everything about HYDRA in the future, would you?

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#38062: Jul 18th 2015 at 11:08:00 AM

Sorry, put that section into spoilers.

zam Since: Jun, 2009
#38063: Jul 18th 2015 at 12:16:46 PM

Just got back from seeing it. Marvel did a good job selling Ant-Man's powerset as a useful one.

Can't wait to see Scott in Civil War.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#38064: Jul 18th 2015 at 12:28:41 PM

1. It stifles the creativity of the directors - Nope, visually the directors can do whatever they want. As far as I can tell, the only part which Marvel insists on are the scripts. Which is necessary to keep the continuity more or less straight. But shouldn't a good director be able to give the movie his voice, no matter how the script looks like?

I'm going to be honest and say that I didn't really find many stylistic differences between each marvel movie, except for winter soldier. i guess that's your point though, i don't really feel that marvel really stifles the creativity of their directors either.

3. Marvel Movies are immature because of the tone - nope...for one, tone has nothing to do with the level of maturity. And two, Marvel can go dark if they want. It always depends on the story they intend to tell.

the only "dark" thing marvel has really done that i've seen is daredevil. but my metric might be a bit skewed in comparison to other people's.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#38065: Jul 18th 2015 at 12:43:28 PM

I just hate the implication that dark is automatically better. Oh, Daredevil was great, no question, but Ant-Man would never have worked that dark.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
zam Since: Jun, 2009
#38066: Jul 18th 2015 at 12:45:40 PM

Yeah Ant-Man had to be a lighthearted film. Unless Eric O'Grady was Ant-Man in this one.

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#38067: Jul 18th 2015 at 12:56:28 PM

it depends on the story, really. daredevil is a character with a history for that kind of gritty film noir drama so it works for him. other marvel characters don't usually have that kind of heavy oppressive atmosphere associated with them.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38069: Jul 18th 2015 at 1:55:03 PM

And I'm back.

It wasn't a big deal.cool

That was fun. It felt very different from Avengers Age Of Ultron, which isn't surprising due to the much lower scale of the conflict. I especially loved the part with Falcon. I don't know much about how Wright was doing things prior to his departure, but if I understand it, things would have been a lot more self contained, but I thought that part worked. Also, it's pretty clear that Falcon is talking about Scott, during the scene at the very end with him, Cap and Bucky, so the only question is what are they calling him in to do?

Looking forward to Captain America Civil War. Gonna be an interesting time, as we move into the next phase.

edited 18th Jul '15 1:55:23 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38070: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:01:37 PM

Pym is a domestic terrorist. They're more akin to rival crime organizations than a superhero/supervillain dynamic. If your daughter gets shot because you joined the Mafia, then maybe you shouldn't have joined the f*cking Mafia.

Are you seriously comparing Pym to the Mafia or a Terrorist? Do you realize how ridiculous this is? Sure, Pym acted outside of the law, but he didn't kill anyone and was in fact trying to save lifes. I am sorry, but technically Stark acted more like a terrorist than he did by attacking the Ten Rings in the first movie.

When your first act as a superhero is to get in a fistfight with the Avengers because they didn't appreciate your attempt to rob them, maybe you're not actually a superhero.

Yeah, let's completely ignore the fact he was running out of time and needed what he robbed to prevent a maniac from selling potentially dangerous weapons, shall we?

Frankly complaining about a superhero acting outside the law is absurd because most of them do. Vigilantism is by definition something outside the law. Superheroes are superheroes as long as they act morally, NOT as long as they follow the law.

Anyway, just saw the movie. Overall I really liked it. This has to be the best version of Pym I have seen in a while, and the movie did a great job at establishing how Antman's powers can actually be very useful.

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#38071: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:03:18 PM

Side note: The last two non-powered sidekicks of a superhero that fought a Mook while the hero did the work had a hard time of it.

Happy fought a guy for several minutes and barely got a knockout while Black Widow was doing her thing. Sam Wilson fought one of Hydra's Mooks in the SHIELD building throughout the finale and probably would have won if he had the time but the fight was interrupted.

Luis takes out two Mooks like they're nothing. [lol]

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38072: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:05:02 PM

Anyway, just saw the movie. Overall I really liked it. This has to be the best version of Pym I have seen in a while, and the movie did a great job at establishing how Antman's powers can actually be very useful.

Agreed. Though Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes beat them to that punch, but it was somewhat more faithful to Hank's comic book origins (minus the wife hitting).

Also, they seem to be hinting that Janet might have survived, or at least Hank seemed to wonder. Then again Scott came back right away, and she didn't.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#38073: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:05:20 PM

It was foreshadowed, kind of.

Even though Luis is unassuming, he is apparently the only guy who knocked out big prison guy whose name I forgot.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Theokal3 Since: Jan, 2012
#38074: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:36:17 PM

[up][up]Well, EMH Pym kinda lost a few points for me when he went Yellowjacket, but yeah, excluding that he is still at the very least as good as this Pym, if not better. What I liked with this version of the character is that he had a kinda Crazy Awesome bug scientist guy I feel really made him great. I mean, he uses his ants to serve him sugar in his tea. That alone is kinda awesome in my opinion. And that's not even mentionning the Keychain tank.

Whowho Since: May, 2012
#38075: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:48:10 PM

Although I thought the finale was a bit rote and that the premise of an amoral corporate executive misusing tech is a bit old hat by now, this film really did a superb job with character.

Although Hank Pym is in a different shape from one might expect, and doesn't explicitly suffer from bi-polar disorder, he does hit all the character points which makes the character important.

Likewize, Darren Cross, despite being the most boring villain on paper was brilliantly written and acted, and became a very realistic example of a sociopath who just can't see the value of other people and their interests. He's a villain with a characterization that makes his actions really believable; making him only akin to Loki in that regard. I hope he, along with Janet, return from the microverse.

I actually cried at the Janet flash back.

I appreciated Hope explicitly making the very good point that it makes more sense for this story to be about her. I am glad that Hank in the end learnt too give more autonomy to those around him.

Oh god this was such a good portrayal of Hank; the kooky mad scientist thing is spot on with him having ant be the solution to everything. The justifiable self doubt and loathing over mistakes. His obsessive disposition. He's resounding desire to do some good in conflict with his downfalls.

Also; this film looked gorgeous. The reason I first got excited about this film was when I heard about the technology they were using to film it and boy oh boy does it show off.

Though that appearance of Falcon looked so bad. It was distractingly clear to me that the two actors filmed the scenes separately on different days. They never share a shot and the acting is a bit static as the actors seem to be talking to thin air off camera. That's the cost of keeping character appearances secret though.

edited 18th Jul '15 2:49:37 PM by Whowho


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