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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#37826: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:54:58 PM

I mean, people didn't dislike "Batfleck" for the same reasons people dislike Tilda Swinton here, or for the same reason I think Benedict Cumberbatch is bad.

Also I never like Heath Ledger's Joker.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#37827: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:56:53 PM

[up] But you can't really know until you've seen the performance.

Make mine Marvel.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#37828: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:58:46 PM

Someone doesn't need to see the performance to decide "I don't like that they've cast a white woman as this asian character"

Or "this actor has never done anything I've liked"

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#37829: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:03:43 PM

I just don't think it's really fair to judge until you go in with an open mind and see it for yourself. "How do you know you don't like it, if you haven't tried it?" and all that.

Make mine Marvel.
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#37830: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:04:42 PM

Personally I'd rather not see a movie I might like than waste 15 bucks on one I probably won't.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#37831: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:05:19 PM

the thing here is that it doesn't really much to do with the performance. tilda swinston could turn in a great performance, but it doesn't change the fact that they whitewashed a role.

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#37832: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:14:26 PM

If they can change the races of Heimdall, Hogun, Nick Fury, and Jasper Sitwell, why can't they change the race of the Ancient One?

Make mine Marvel.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#37833: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:15:36 PM

It's the same issue with Khan in the new Star Trek movie. Yeah Cumberbatch did a great job as him but at the end of the day he still isn't Indian.

[up]I shouldn't have to explain this but changing a white person to a minority is a lot less problematic than the reverse. We have tons of white people. Why take away what few minority roles Marvel does have?

edited 15th Jul '15 4:16:46 PM by Kostya

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#37834: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:17:14 PM

[up][up] The difference is that with those characters, they were changing them to become minorities, thus increasing diversity. Here, they are changing an already minority character into a white character, thus decreasing diversity.

Honestly, if they turned the Ancient One into a white male, I would be mad, but since it's Tilda Swinton, I can't really become that mad, because she's an awesome actress and will probably kick ass in the role.

edited 15th Jul '15 4:17:21 PM by alliterator

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#37835: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:17:26 PM

[up][up][up]Because there are plenty of white folks running around. The audience won't miss a few.

Not so for Asian characters.

[nja]

edited 15th Jul '15 4:17:41 PM by Wackd

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#37836: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:19:47 PM

I just want to point out that in the entirety of the MCU film canon there is only one Asian person with a name and a significant role in the plot. Now with that in mind take a look at how many white people we have running around.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#37837: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:21:02 PM

I don't want to diminish how few Asian characters there are in the MCU, but you're forgetting Agents of SHIELD, which has three major Asian characters.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#37838: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:22:37 PM

That's why I specified the film canon. The TV shows have been a bit better about this but those aren't as big as the movies. Representation matters more in them.

edited 15th Jul '15 4:24:47 PM by Kostya

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#37839: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:24:34 PM

Ah, I was confused by what film canon meant, then. I assumed that just included the TV shows as well. My mistake.

edited 15th Jul '15 4:24:42 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#37840: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:25:52 PM

Why does their race even matter? Who cares if they're white, Asian, black, Latino, Indian, whatever? It's really about the characters, isn't it? Nobody complains about there being too many characters with brown hair.

edited 15th Jul '15 4:27:26 PM by FoxBoxKid

Make mine Marvel.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#37841: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:28:39 PM

Asian characters in MCU films:

  1. Hogun from Thor and Thor: The Dark World (well, technically he's from Vanaheim, but the actor is Asian)
  2. Jim Morita from Captain America: The First Avenger
  3. Helen Cho from Avengers: Age of Ultron

You know, I actually think Age of Ultron did the best in terms of diversity - Helen Cho has a large impact on the plot and even survives to the end of the film. Hogun has little to no impact and Morita has a couple of really cool scenes and then fades into the background.

[up] I'm guessing you are a troll, because the point of having more diversity is having more diversity. So the movies aren't stuffed with white men named Chris; so different people can see people who look like them in the movies. Diversity is good.

edited 15th Jul '15 4:30:13 PM by alliterator

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#37842: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:28:54 PM

History hasn't had people getting mistreated, enslaved, or killed for having brown hair, as far as I know.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#37843: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:29:39 PM

Race does matter. If every single hero is a white person it sends the message that minorities can't be heroes. Why is it so hard to just cast minorities?

[up][up]I forgot about Hogun. He and Morita aren't major characters though. I'd still argue that Helen Cho is the first Asian character with a major role in a movie.

edited 15th Jul '15 4:31:00 PM by Kostya

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#37844: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:30:12 PM

[up]x4 Read this.

edited 15th Jul '15 4:30:27 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#37845: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:32:02 PM

Something that the first episode of Agents of SHIELD touched on a bit

Shame that it didn't really follow up

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#37846: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:34:04 PM

it goes beyond just representation too because sometimes a person's race is an important part of their history and how they relate to other characters.

i.e batman being the son of an old family of rich white people has been a defining trait of his character for pretty much the entirety of his existence. it wouldn't necessarily be BAD if he were portrayed by an asian or african actor but it does make a pretty big change in terms of how he fits into a larger sociocultural context because logically speaking it'd probably mean his family's wealth isn't as old. it means that he basically isn't an aristocrat anymore.

edited 15th Jul '15 4:35:29 PM by wehrmacht

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#37847: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:34:32 PM

http://screencrush.com/exclusive-djimon-hounsou-guardians-of-the-galaxy/

At Comic-Con and you talked about taking Guardians of the Galaxy because your son told you he wanted to be light-skinned so he could play Spider-Man.

Djimon Hounsou: I just thought about that story when I was there. I mean, obviously it's been disturbing me for some time that my son said that. So I've been on a journey to try to show him other superheroes that are of our color, that are diverse, and I find it difficult to find something online. The only thing I found was my own voiceover of Black Panther that I did for an animation for BET some time ago. But it was interesting to be there for that and remembering that my son once said that. That was the first thing that shocked me and realized that we as a minority don't have heroes. Yeah, that shocked me.

Someone find that one Anthony Mackie interview where he says something similar.

edited 15th Jul '15 4:39:02 PM by AlleyOop

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#37848: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:36:43 PM

Something that the first episode of Agents of SHIELD touched on a bit

What do you mean? The pilot of AOS didn't touch of the important of minority representation at all.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#37849: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:41:48 PM

There was subtext with Mike Peterson and how his son idolized all the white superheroes: Cap, Thor, Iron Man

It figures into his decision to volunteer for the dangerous Centipede experiment thing.

edited 15th Jul '15 4:42:11 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#37850: Jul 15th 2015 at 4:44:27 PM

[up]x6 I've heard those points before, and I acknowledge their validity.

That being said, Marvel is out to make superhero movies and diversity is kinda incidental to that. If the movie's diverse, great; if it's not, oh well. As long as they keep entertaining me, I don't really care what the demography of the cast is.

Make mine Marvel.

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