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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#37801: Jul 15th 2015 at 2:51:22 PM

The Ancient One is supposed to be Tibetian, which Tilda Swinton clearly isn't. Yet another example of whitewashing.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#37802: Jul 15th 2015 at 2:52:06 PM

I'm sure Swinton is a fine actor but why is she playing the Ancient One? Was it that hard to find an Asian lady for the part?

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#37803: Jul 15th 2015 at 2:55:19 PM

The Ancient One is also an example of a super stereotypical character from the comics (similar to the Mandarin). I'm okay with what they are doing as long as they are getting rid of the racist stereotypes (and have other Asians in the movie).

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#37804: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:02:56 PM

I'm all for that but not if you're doing it by removing the minority characters entirely. Why don't you just remove the stereotypical elements of the character?

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#37805: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:07:05 PM

Honestly, there's gotta be more effective ways of fixing problematic or stereotypical parts rather than just making them into white people.

I was more fine with the Mandarin because they at least managed to have some fun commentary on the nature of Yellow Peril caricatures in general, but somehow I doubt Doctor Strange is going to be that clever with it.

edited 15th Jul '15 3:07:49 PM by comicwriter

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#37806: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:17:37 PM

It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The Ancient One is kind of an Asian Stereoptype in that he's a mystical old grandmaster, and they'd catch Hell for leaving him as-is.

But he's also a minority, so they'd catch Hell for making him an old white dude.

My various fanfics.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#37807: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:22:22 PM

Which I agree with but like I said, surely there are other routes to go than "Okay let's just make him British."

I mean, they couldn't have gotten Gong Li or Michelle Yeoh or some other talented Asian actress and made the part an Asian woman?

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#37808: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:22:58 PM

More minorities! Too minority-ish! More women! Not that kind of women! Those goalposts are too close, move them back some more!

Been some time since the conversation has swayed back to the topic of the white devil.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#37809: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:24:02 PM

Considering the great job Uncharted 2 did, and Far Cry 4's ability to portray Himalayan culture with some sort of respect, there's at least some increasing awareness of the area that surely it wouldn't have been too hard for Marvel to reinvent the character in a way that's a lot more realistic and respectful while staying true to his roots.

[up]Nobody's been saying anything of that sort. Stop before you dig yourself into the Everything Is Racist (Against White People) hole.

edited 15th Jul '15 3:25:19 PM by AlleyOop

wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#37810: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:24:18 PM

i understand what people mean about the unfortunate stereotype thing, but i think it's important to keep in mind that the idea of a spiritually enlightened old sage or w/e exists in a lot of asian cultures too. as long as the character was actually you know, tibetan, it wouldn't really have been particularly disrespectful.

edited 15th Jul '15 3:24:52 PM by wehrmacht

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#37811: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:24:50 PM

[up]x5 Yeah, it really is a tricky situation.

I think making it an asian woman would have been good, though. As long as they wrote her well, and didn't make the actress put on a terrible accent, it would have been mostly fine.

They're gonna run into the same issue with Danny Rand, too. And I'm interested to see how they handle that.

edited 15th Jul '15 3:25:05 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#37812: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:29:27 PM

More minorities! Too minority-ish! More women! Not that kind of women! Those goalposts are too close, move them back some more!

Yeah, that's an utter bollocks framing of the argument, and you know it. It's not "More women! No not that kind!" It's pointing out that yeah we should be getting more women and minority parts in the MCU but not at expense of the other.

But that doesn't make for as cute a strawman, I guess.

edited 15th Jul '15 3:29:37 PM by comicwriter

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#37813: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:30:19 PM

There's no good answer to Danny Rand.

Either they play him straight as a Mighty Whitey figure or they recast him as an Asian man, ignoring a perfectly good Asian character that could be used for exactly that role.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#37814: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:32:36 PM

Don't get me wrong, I like Tilda Swinton, but more than often, Marvel's casting lately has been iffy IMO.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#37815: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:38:11 PM

What about Latino, Middle Eastern, or mixed race in general? I'd be personally happy with an ABC Rand, but those other options will sidestep both issues while also being a more accurate reflection of the current demographics of New York City.

edited 15th Jul '15 3:40:03 PM by AlleyOop

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#37816: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:39:38 PM

Either they play him straight as a Mighty Whitey figure or they recast him as an Asian man, ignoring a perfectly good Asian character that could be used for exactly that role.

Wait, what "perfectly good Asian character"? You mean Shang-Chi? Because Danny Rand and Shang Chi are vastly different characters.

I don't think making Danny Rand Asian-American has any unfortunate implications.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#37817: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:40:01 PM

I'd like if they just did Shang-Chi but that's probably not gonna happen...

[up]Well I think they were pointing out in that they're both street level martial arts-based superheroes.

But honestly I feel like this bit, you could make Asian Danny Rand work. Just make sure to hammer home that he's a thoroughly modern, westernized kid so the culture shock of going to K'un Lun is still there.

edited 15th Jul '15 3:40:43 PM by comicwriter

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#37818: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:40:05 PM

[up]x3 That actually does seem like the best option. It avoids Mighty Whitey, and it avoids "asian kung-fu master" and it could bring some other stuff to the character.

edited 15th Jul '15 3:40:26 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#37819: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:43:26 PM

[up][up][up]

The big issue is he's supposed a very visible outsider with respect to his adopted home of K'un-Lun, which wouldn't be as obvious with an Asian actor who at least superficially resembles all the other inhabitants of K'un-Lun. While there's a lot of Applicability left if you make him Asian, The fact that he's a different race from the locals is an important part of his character from conception. There's also the All Asians Know Martial Arts stereotype, or at least the idea that the only Asian action stars are kung fu masters.

On a side note I'd really like Jimmy Woo to show up in the MCU. He's not particularly stereotypical and would fit well into AOS or one of the other TV shows.

edited 15th Jul '15 3:46:50 PM by AlleyOop

FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#37820: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:43:41 PM

Regarding skipping Doctor Strange due to gripes over the casting:

The movie doesn't even come out for 16 months, and the only info we have is who's playing who for three characters, who's directing, who wrote it, and what the source material is. We still don't know the story or any characters aside from Strange, Mordo, and the Ancient One. They haven't even started filming yet. So maybe you should wait for more information before you make a decision. There's plenty of time to do so.

Make mine Marvel.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#37821: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:44:41 PM

Well, Danny Rand comes from a super rich family. So many him an Asian-American rich person who grew up in the rich side of New York would make him a sufficient outsider in K'un-L'un.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#37822: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:44:55 PM

I'd say not liking casting choices is an entirely valid reason to not want to see a movie. No matter how early it is in production.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#37824: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:50:40 PM

Oh that's cheating, Haley!

My various fanfics.
FoxBoxKid Philosophy Enthusiast from California Republic Since: Oct, 2013
Philosophy Enthusiast
#37825: Jul 15th 2015 at 3:52:50 PM

[up][up][up] I'm saying it's much too early to say you don't like casting choices. Heath Ledger, Michael Keaton and Ben Affleck were all widely-hated choices when they were announced as the Joker, Batman, and Batman respectively, but Ledger and Keaton proved the haters wrong and the consensus on Batfleck did a 180. I know this isn't exactly the same thing, but I still think it's myopic.

Make mine Marvel.

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