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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#36126: Jun 6th 2015 at 5:46:18 PM

Banner probably used to go to populated areas because he found it easier blending in with a large population than hiding on his own. After Avengers, he had no reason to be hiding out any more, so maybe he just stuck around populated areas because Tony convinced him could be a hero.

Also, in Avengers films Hulk is a bit more... violent than he was in the solo film, and both times he was under some degree of mind control. The solo film makes it pretty clear that if given the choice between fighting and running away so as to be left alone, Hulk will choose to run, and he never goes after innocent people (Johannesburg is the first time he willfully harmed people who weren't threatening towards him). Attack him, however, and he'll destroy you and the nearest city block if need be.

So I think that while the MCU Hulk has probably caused the deaths of quite a few innocents over the years, the number itself might be lower than we think.

edited 6th Jun '15 5:51:22 PM by KnownUnknown

IronScope STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS. from Somewhere Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
STOP. RESETTING. MY. DISPLAY. OPTIONS.
#36127: Jun 6th 2015 at 7:53:01 PM

There's a scene in TIH where Ross tells Blonsky that the Hulk is implicated in the deaths of about half a dozen people.

This place is careless.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36129: Jun 6th 2015 at 9:07:23 PM

[up][up] Yeah, I wouldn't trust anything General Ross says, especially about the Hulk.

Per Incredible Hulk, it does appear that the Hulk doesn't willfully attack people unless provoked. Age of Ultron had him mind-controlled, which means he probably did cause some deaths there (which affected him greatly — remember, he later threatens to kill Scarlet Witch with his bare hands), but before that, I don't think he killed anyone who didn't attack him first.

I do think he shouldn't be a mass murderer — if he truly killed over a thousand people, I think it wouldn't matter, he would immediately isolate himself.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#36130: Jun 6th 2015 at 9:13:11 PM

It's not a matter of attacking people, it's a matter of the Hulk frequently collapsing buildings during his rampages. The Hulk rarely aims at specific people, but when you go around flipping cars and turning buildings into rubble, you will kill boatloads of people.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#36131: Jun 6th 2015 at 9:14:00 PM

Technically it wouldn't be murder, but manslaughter. He's not in a right state of mind as the Hulk. Even Ross knows this, pointing out during their excursion to Brazil that Bruce has made great efforts to be alone.

It's become canon at least that he did try killing himself to stop any future disasters. Maybe it wasn't in the arctic as first filmed, but he did try isolating himself too. It wasn't permanent though, because, well, one gets bored, and he started to hope that maybe after staying calm for so long he could contain it and help locals at least.

Yeah, I wouldn't trust anything General Ross says, especially about the Hulk.

Surely a General like him would be required to have and produce documentation of the Hulk's actions and deaths caused by him, in order to get approval to hunt him internationally.

edited 6th Jun '15 9:16:04 PM by Tuckerscreator

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#36132: Jun 6th 2015 at 9:15:11 PM

[up][up][up]I agree with that. Sure, Hulk needs to be dangerous or his characters becomes moot, but I don't see him as someone who just cause wanton destruction and murders. In fact, he is explicitly shown to not do that. In his movie, he is shown to get away of civilization soon after transforming. Sure, he attacks whatever is angrily him, but immediately after that he is shown to just jump off to somewhere he won't hurt anyone.

[up][up]In how many rampages we have seem him do that, though? I actually don't remember any, even the one in Age Of Ultron (which he "mind controlled"note , anyway). I am more worried about the debris his fights tend to cause. But even then, it is not like he does that on purpose and without someone pushing him to.

edited 6th Jun '15 9:17:27 PM by Heatth

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36133: Jun 6th 2015 at 9:18:10 PM

It's not a matter of attacking people, it's a matter of the Hulk frequently collapsing buildings during his rampages.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he only collapsed buildings during Age of Ultron when he was mind-controlled. He said that he "broke" Harlem in Incredible Hulk, but I don't remember him collapsing any buildings - he literally broke the street, I think, and used some cars to fight the Abomination, but I don't remember any buildings collapsing.

And, at the same time, in Iron Man, Iron Man and Iron Monger's fight also did a lot of damage and probably caused some deaths as well. But then again, this is the movies and we're not supposed to think about - all the "supposed" deaths are swept away as "Nobody died or got too badly injured." Because, well, movies.

zsax Since: Mar, 2015
#36134: Jun 6th 2015 at 9:25:20 PM

Could be worse, though. Imagine if instead of shy and awkard, but overall good guy willing-to-kill-himself-if-he-could Banner, we had *shudders* Ultimate Hulk.

edited 6th Jun '15 9:25:32 PM by zsax

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36135: Jun 6th 2015 at 9:27:10 PM

[up] We don't talk about Ultimate Hulk. Do not mention Ultimate Hulk. Forget Ultimate Hulk ever existed.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#36137: Jun 6th 2015 at 9:40:50 PM

He doesn't collapse any buildings in Incredible Hulk or Avengers 1, even in that one fight in Incredible Hulk that took place inside a building. Even his fight with Abomination, which takes place in a heavily urban area, only superficially damaged the buildings around him - and Abomination was the one who did most of the breaking.

edited 6th Jun '15 9:41:34 PM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36138: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:37:52 PM

Yeah, that's what I thought. Age of Ultron was the only one where he collapsed any buildings (and I believe that was because Tony dropped him into an empty one). So while collateral damage is a thing, it can be handwaved away to say that he's injured but not killed anybody.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#36139: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:39:42 PM

That's semantics, really. So he hadn't technically leveled a building yet but he still tossed cars, smashed jeeps, burst through buildings, and did a ton of other stuff when someone easily might have been flattened in the meantime.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36140: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:41:33 PM

So has Iron Man. And so has Captain America. Big superhero battles tend to do all of those things. But we don't say that they are killers (or manslaughter-ers...you know what I mean), because these are movies and those kinds of things are handwaved away. "Oh that was an empty building." "Oh, nobody died."

Because we don't want to see the real life consequences of those big battles. We want Fast and Furious action where they can have a big car chase with a safe across a freeway and nobody dies, even though it's completely unrealistic.

Essentially? Because it's fiction and not reality.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#36141: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:47:48 PM

But then when it happens in Man of Steel, everyone demands it. And then when it's clear the sequel will address it, everyone pisses and moans that it's to dark and serious and grimdark.

Sorry

Sorry

Raw nerve.

My various fanfics.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#36142: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:53:11 PM

[up][up]That's pushing away the argument. The original point was that the Hulk cannot be claimed to have never killed anyone innocent because his power scale and lack of control make that implausible. Claiming "well so must have all the other superheroes" doesn't invalidate that.

At least in the case of Iron Man, Cap, etc, they have significantly more control and less strength, letting them also prioritize getting civilians out of the way and keeping their fights more in check. The Hulk, however, hadn't learned to do that until The Avengers.

edited 6th Jun '15 11:53:27 PM by Tuckerscreator

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#36143: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:54:04 PM

And, also, the other superheroes don't have the collective mass of an entire football team.

My various fanfics.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36144: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:56:00 PM

[up][up][up]That's different. There, the movie was clearly showing the consequences — they showed the many, many people affected by the giant worldshaker (or whatever it was). Just like at the end of Avengers and Age of Ultron, where they clearly show them helping people, now the movie wants to focus on the collateral damage.

Previously, however, when you have a fight, say, between Iron Man and Iron Monger in Iron Man or Captain America and the Winter Soldier in Winter Soldier, there is no focus on collateral damage or civilian casualties because we aren't supposed to think about it. Just like at the end of Incredible Hulk.

The movie's view (and the comics, too, pretty much) is "Out of sight, out of mind." Until someone brings it up, it doesn't exist.

That's pushing away the argument. The original point was that the Hulk cannot be claimed to have never killed anyone innocent because his power scale and lack of control make that implausible. Claiming "well so must have all the other superheroes" doesn't invalidate that.

I think saying something is "implausible" when we're talking about a man transforming into an eight-foot tall green rage monster is kind of silly. Sure, it's implausible. Doesn't mean it can't happen in the movies.

edited 6th Jun '15 11:58:23 PM by alliterator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#36145: Jun 7th 2015 at 12:09:58 AM

The MCU never glossed over collateral damage. Not once. In Iron Man, there is this scene in which Tony tries to rescue the woman in the car. And yes, it is played for laughs, but we still get to see a terrified mother and her children who end up in the crossfire. We also get to see people who suffered because terrorists got their hands on Tony's weapons in the movie. In The Incredible Hulk, there are a number of scenes which show the people on the street when the Abnomination in loose, and the danger they are in. Iron Man 2 has a whole scene which is only about evacuating the expo. The First Avenger might be the "most guilty" of the movie, since it portrays war a little bit like a big adventure in some scenes, but even there you get this scene in which they contrast the realities of war with propaganda and yet another scene in which Steve sits in the bombed out bar in which the Howling Commanders once celebrated together, grieving over Bucky. Thor has a whole scene which is about getting the people out of the little town because the destroyer is about it attack. The Avengers has a lot of shots from the perspective of civilians (and some from the perspective of cars which are getting flipped over), the candle wand in the end and if they hadn't be forced to cut the movie, we would have actually seen the young police officer die on screen. I could do the same with the phase 2 movies. Age of Ultron puts an even greater emphasis on the need of protecting civilians, but the theme has been there from the get go. Sure, we don't see body parts lying in the street, but those movies are supposed to be PG-13.

Concerning Man of Steel....honestly, I am tired of explaining what the problem there is. You either see it immediately, or you don't, or you don't want to see it.

edited 7th Jun '15 12:11:06 AM by Swanpride

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36146: Jun 7th 2015 at 12:25:44 AM

[up] I wouldn't call quick shots of one or two civilians giving a lot of focus to them, not to the extent that Avengers and Age of Ultron did. Sure, those were bigger battles, but Iron Man had one quick shot of a mother and child and they were saved and that was it. That was the handwave to show that everyone was alright and there was nobody who died during that battle.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#36147: Jun 7th 2015 at 12:30:07 AM

[up]Which mostly happened up in the sky and in an empty company building. Well, empty aside from the SHIELD agents.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36148: Jun 7th 2015 at 12:37:08 AM

[up]Huh? The building that was full of people in Avengers didn't have any SHIELD agents. It was full of, well, people. Including that waitress that there was a focus on. (In fact, there was a previous cut scene where she talked to Steve, giving her more of a focus.)

And Age of Ultron gives a lot of focus on the Avengers leading people to safety.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#36149: Jun 7th 2015 at 12:39:47 AM

[up]I was talking about the battle in Iron Man.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#36150: Jun 7th 2015 at 1:54:17 AM

MCU didnt concern to much about colateral damage, is just they take point in leaving anything away so the public can see the big battle without moral issue, which to be fair is a standar comic issue(unless they decided to take the grimdark take that week), so having the hulk being a danger but not killing anyone....feel really cheeping the idea.

Also I the only one who feel Bruce was right(a least a little bit) to threat wanda like that? I mean I was shock for a moment because bruce looked really serious about doing something to her, It was quite scary actually.

About Ultron...I didnt like it, one moment he act like a threating AI and the other he is just....well, evil tony, the only time we see how is mind work is with Vision since he understand him better that anyone else, his final chat betweeen the two is actually pretty good and I really want more interaction between this two

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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