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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36101: Jun 5th 2015 at 10:08:41 PM

[up] I believe they introduced that before because they thought Bruce just couldn't go on knowing that he was responsible for an innocent person's death.

Of course, he still feels guilt for causing billions of dollars worth of damage, but at least he hasn't killed anybody.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#36102: Jun 5th 2015 at 10:11:29 PM

[up]Maybe not in official continuity, but in my personal headcannon he has, because with all of that destruction and devastation the Hulks' caused, someone has had to die at the very least.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#36103: Jun 5th 2015 at 11:16:37 PM

[up][up]Either way, it's nothing short of ludicrous. Hulk's fights have leveled cities. His deathtoll should be in the hundreds of thousands, attributing to the sociopathy he's shown recently.

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alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36104: Jun 5th 2015 at 11:36:51 PM

[up] If that was true, though, there would be no way Bruce Banner could live with himself.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#36105: Jun 5th 2015 at 11:50:15 PM

Or maybe it doesn't matter that he wouldn't be able to live with the guilt.

edited 5th Jun '15 11:50:23 PM by Tuckerscreator

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36106: Jun 5th 2015 at 11:54:46 PM

Yeah, but if he was responsible for thousands of deaths, he wouldn't ever go near a populated city again. He would live in the arctic or someplace.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#36107: Jun 6th 2015 at 12:05:07 AM

He may not know his own bodycount, or want to find out for his own sanity. Either way, staying away from big population sites is already the course of action he should take. If a guy in a neighborhood has a rocket launcher on his front lawn that sometimes fires at random, it would be way better to move that thing away before it kills anybody, not after.

edited 6th Jun '15 12:05:57 AM by Tuckerscreator

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36108: Jun 6th 2015 at 12:17:20 AM

[up] I know it's a handwave, but still: it's better if one of the main characters isn't a mass murderer. That's something Bruce Banner really shouldn't be.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#36109: Jun 6th 2015 at 12:35:11 AM

I liked that Ultron was so...human. Mostly because I expected yet another logical robot. This take was very refreshing. And meaningful.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#36110: Jun 6th 2015 at 7:13:00 AM

Movie Ultron

I said this with Mandarin and I'll say it again with Ultron: the finer details have changed, but the spirit of the character is alive and thriving.

Yeah, but if he was responsible for thousands of deaths, he wouldn't ever go near a populated city again. He would live in the arctic or someplace.

He tries. A recurring plot point is that the Hulk just wants to be left alone but people keep dragging him back in.

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Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#36111: Jun 6th 2015 at 9:05:30 AM

I'm going to second the guess the Hulk has killed a few thousand people in his rampages. It'd be absurd for him to have wrecked cities and for not a soul to have died.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#36112: Jun 6th 2015 at 9:13:52 AM

I liked Ultron's characterization in the movie, particularly the ways the writers made him similar to Tony; quite a few of his snarkier lines felt like things Tony would have said.

I agree that a more human-behaving robot was refreshing and interesting after dozens of movies about emotionless, logical A.I.s.

It feels like we're meant to conclude that the Hulk did kill people on his South Africa rampage; Bruce wouldn't have that kind of breakdown and leave the team over just causing some property destruction. If the Hulk had some magical ability to destroy property without harming people, then Bruce wouldn't be so terrified of turning into him.

I don't think thousands, but some.

edited 6th Jun '15 9:17:05 AM by Galadriel

Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#36113: Jun 6th 2015 at 9:20:11 AM

[up][up][up]Thats why he left at the end of the movie![nja]

edited 6th Jun '15 9:20:37 AM by Xopher001

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#36114: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:41:15 AM

On Ultron.

I'm gonna use what Linkara argued in his review of the Silent Hill comics; there are certain characters who have a unique voice or personality attached to them. But there are some characters whose appeal is that they are the exception to that rule. Ultron is one of said characters. He thinks on a level that is beyond human comprehension. He acts like a machine because he IS a machine; cold, calculating, ruthless, with no emotions.

Sure you have villains like Loki and Joker whose snark and charisma is how they have their fans, but Ultron is not those characters. The sheer horror comes from the complete lack of anything resembling a human being that you can pin on him. When you attach human quirks to him, you rob him of what makes him so frightening. And heaven knows the MCU villains have been lacking in that department.

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#36115: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:46:16 AM

I don't think non-human villains are particularly frightening, honestly. It's one thing to ascribe evil to an inexplicable force — it's another, far more scary (IMO) thing to make evil us.

The Other is not a concept based in horror; it's a concept to make horror less horrible by disassociating it from ourselves. To tell ourselves we don't have the potential to be that bad, we're normal and evil isn't.

...I mean Ultron has the cartoonishly evil goal of wiping out all of humanity just kinda because so maybe he's a bad example of this in action, I don't know.

"We're home, Chewie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#36116: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:48:00 AM

It's worth noting that Linkara liked this movie's Ultron, and argued that we also got the more inhuman Ultron by way of his immobile faced drones.

edited 6th Jun '15 11:48:46 AM by Tuckerscreator

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#36117: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:48:51 AM

Please, Doombot #7756 is hardly horrifying. I'd much rather he had a personality.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#36118: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:52:56 AM

Again, MCU Ultron is threatening but I would never call him scary in any way due to the way he was executed. If a more comic-accurate, non-human Ultron were in the film I'd say the same thing if I found such a hypothetical execution unterrifying.

edited 6th Jun '15 11:56:15 AM by VeryMelon

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#36119: Jun 6th 2015 at 11:56:11 AM

Sure you have villains like Loki and Joker whose snark and charisma is how they have their fans, but Ultron is not those characters. The sheer horror comes from the complete lack of anything resembling a human being that you can pin on him. When you attach human quirks to him, you rob him of what makes him so frightening. And heaven knows the MCU villains have been lacking in that department.

... The same Ultron who hates daddy. And who built himself a wife?

I think the whole thing about Ultron is that he's never been a complete lack of anything human. His thing is he's convinced he's a superior logical existence when he's running off emotions as much as any human.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#36120: Jun 6th 2015 at 12:13:54 PM

[up] Case in point: Ultron's daddy issues (whether that be with Pym or Stark) and his Oedipus complex toward Jan in the comics (see the creation of Jocasta and that one time he turned Stark's Iron Man armor into a doppelganger of Jan, while Tony was still inside and with Ultron's consciousness running the armor).

I guess that's to be expected when you're based on the mind of someone like 616 Pym or MCU Tony.

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#36121: Jun 6th 2015 at 12:22:49 PM

[up]Ah... well I still stand by my point.

[up][up]|Perhaps the key is not to think of Ultron as the Other but as a weapon or a force of nature then? If that makes sense.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#36123: Jun 6th 2015 at 12:25:18 PM

He tries. A recurring plot point is that the Hulk just wants to be left alone but people keep dragging him back in.

But he still lives in populated cities - in Avengers, he lived in Calcutta in the beginning. Lots of people there. If he truly believed having a Hulk-out would cause thousands of deaths, he would immediately move to the arctic and not let anyone drag him away. But he doesn't because the Hulk doesn't cause thousands of deaths. In the movies, actually, I don't think he's caused any deaths aside from Chitauri — even the soldier he threw out of his plane in the first Avengers got his parachute open.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#36125: Jun 6th 2015 at 12:49:43 PM

He definitely killed people in Johannesburg. There were those cops he threw a truck at. And perhaps some of those soldiers at Culver. He wasn't in Calcutta or Brazil because he thought the Hulk can't kill people. He was there because he felt he could control himself by then.

I think it robs the Hulk of a bunch of his meaning if he can never kill anyone. Unlike other supers, the Hulk's powers have typically manifested as a curse. A curse of anger that risks Banner hurting his loved ones if he doesn't learn to control his own dark urges. It's a curse he has to maneuver to do good instead, and can do good, but not good by default.

Like, going back to the rocket launcher thing: you can point a rocket launcher at a bunch of evil terrorists instead of civilians and so do a good thing. It doesn't change that a rocket launcher is still a lethal weapon that should be kept away from innocents, if even it hasn't hurt one yet.


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