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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#35301: May 29th 2015 at 12:23:36 PM

[up]Same for me. He also established some of the stuff utilized in the movies like Maria Hill and Avengers Tower.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35302: May 29th 2015 at 12:24:07 PM

And me. I missed Disassembled but jumped onboard at Civil War, then read some of the stuff that led up to it. If you asked me before who my favorite superhero was, I'd be like, "Duh, Spider-Man," because he had all the exposure from cartoons and movies and video games and stuff and was just so cool.

I barely remembered Iron Man from that old 90's cartoon and a few shitty adaptations since, but Bendis's New Avengers and JMS's Amazing Spider-Man quickly made Tony Stark my favorite superhero ever.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#35303: May 29th 2015 at 12:25:09 PM

I guess I'm the odd one out. Most of my knowledge comes from the first 120 or so issues of the original run.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#35304: May 29th 2015 at 12:25:13 PM

I just wish Disassembled wasn't so stupid and gratitious.

Whatever else you can say about Bendis as a writer, the fact that he thinks Byrne's West Coast Avengers run was worth following up on is not a strike in his favor.

But you're right that it had the intended effect and the stupid stuff has mostly, mostly been fixed or lessened over the years.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#35305: May 29th 2015 at 12:26:17 PM

Tony was Peter's cool sort of godfather so long during JMS that his sudden shift in Civil War was very sharp if you jumped on at Civil War after having only read JMS. He was still sort of nice in the tie in Spider-Man issues but in the event issues proper he was a huge dick.

edited 29th May '15 12:27:17 PM by LordofLore

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#35306: May 29th 2015 at 12:29:57 PM

I've come to think Bendis is better at writing characters than stories. And even then, only certain characters that he happens to like. Me messes up a few characters, but when he got it right they are really enjoyable to read. They are truly the meat of the book instead of random people who are only there so the plot can move forward.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35307: May 29th 2015 at 12:31:22 PM

Mark Millar made a lot of mistakes in Civil War, and one of those was deliberately demonizing Tony Stark because he was under the impression that if Stark wasn't behaving like a colossal dick monster, audiences would have no reason to ever side with the Anti-Regs.

Millar intended the Pro-Regs to be the "right" side but wanted it to be a morally grey conflict, so he glued a bunch of extracurricular villainy to Stark in an ill-conceived attempt to introduce ambiguity to a story he figured would otherwise be completely black and white. What he missed was that there were plenty of people who would have been willing to back the Anti-Regs on its own merits, and so instead of balancing the scales, he tipped them all the way the other direction.

Other writers just followed his lead; JMS has even been quoted as inquiring, "So Iron Man's a supervillain now?" in meetings where this direction was explained.

edited 29th May '15 12:32:53 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#35308: May 29th 2015 at 12:32:48 PM

Is it really so hard to make it clear that both the pro and anti sides have valid points?

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#35310: May 29th 2015 at 12:35:32 PM

[up][up]Apparently.

Though, to be honest, it is hard to not demonize at last one side if they wanted they fighting each other. Heroes wouldn't fight in the scale of the Civil War if they were both remotely reasonable. But the Register became a fascist draft and Captain eventually dropped the civil disobedience for outright guerrilla fight.

edited 29th May '15 12:36:06 PM by Heatth

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#35311: May 29th 2015 at 12:36:03 PM

Mark Millar isn't one for subtlety

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35312: May 29th 2015 at 12:41:14 PM

Mark Millar also says the new Fantastic Four movie will be good.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#35313: May 29th 2015 at 12:44:49 PM

Well that's his job. He was a consultant on it.

As for the actual pro and anti thing the problem is Pro-Reg is very hard to get readers to sympathize with. Yeah, it makes more sense for the heroes to relinquish their identities and work as agents of the government, but that's not why most people like superheroes.

I don't think anyone's ever said "Batman would be much cooler if he hung up his cape and became a legitimate police officer!"

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35314: May 29th 2015 at 12:47:22 PM

The Batman Inc. idea Grant Morrison had was good.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#35315: May 29th 2015 at 12:48:07 PM

[up][up]The problem is that, what CW ultimately said was "for Batman to exist he needs to become a police officer of a fascist state, and that is the right thing to do". That is not only unappealing, it is downright absurd.

edited 29th May '15 12:52:40 PM by Heatth

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#35316: May 29th 2015 at 12:51:20 PM

[up]Yeah, that too. Iron Man and the Pro-Regers were so cartoonishly evil that I can't fathom how Millar thought people would sympathize with them over Cap.

There's also the fact that in general, audiences tend to support the underdogs and rebels versus the big government types.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#35317: May 29th 2015 at 12:54:11 PM

One of the worst things about Civil War is how little consistency the act itself had, and what it entailed.

Does is only apply to people with powers who want to use them to fight crime? Does it apply to everyone who has superpowers, regardless of whether they just want to have regular lives? Is it just registering with the government, like a superpower census? Is it submitting to the government's will, acting as they will at their beck and call? Is it a choice, or is it something forced upon people? Can people opt out and leave the country, or will the government hunt your ass down?

Or in short, was it simply about reforming stance on superheroes and giving them much needed checks and oversight, or was it an imperious attempt by the government and SHIELD to put all superpowered beings under their control?

The answer is, of course, yes. Because none of the writers could agree about it. The result was a fucking mess.

edited 29th May '15 12:59:10 PM by KnownUnknown

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35319: May 29th 2015 at 1:03:34 PM

There's also the fact that Superhuman/hero Registration Act is just a bad choice of words given the troubles the X-Men have had with the Mutant Registration Act. Anyone who's fond of the X-Men franchise is going to kneejerk to Anti-Reg at the mere mention of the name.

Does is only apply to people with powers who want to use them to fight crime?

And what about the ones who don't even have powers? Does Hawkeye have to register?!

edited 29th May '15 1:06:00 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#35320: May 29th 2015 at 1:05:26 PM

[up]And they had to perform several Authors Saving Throws to explain why someone like Mr. Fantastic, who opposed registration and has a mutant son, would suddenly be gung ho Pro-Reg.

edited 29th May '15 1:13:22 PM by comicwriter

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35321: May 29th 2015 at 1:08:03 PM

They had to perform those for everyone, and most were pre-emptive; established before the event itself. That's part of the problem: nobody was genuinely invested in their side.

Cap picked his side because S.H.I.E.L.D. shoved guns in his face and demanded he fall in line. Luke Cage picked his because they did the same thing, planting officers right on his doorstep.

Iron Man picked his side because he was trying to be a stopgap to prevent the government from going any further off the deep end and unleashing murderous Sentinels on all the supers. Reed Richards picked his because he mathematically calculated that the world would end unless the Pro-Regs won. Hank Pym was a Skrull attempting to destabilize the superhero community.

Nobody in a leadership role was involved in this just 'cause they thought it was the right thing to do.

edited 29th May '15 1:09:51 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#35322: May 29th 2015 at 1:11:14 PM

And then he made a school out of her corpse.

Okay, what?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#35323: May 29th 2015 at 1:11:44 PM

None of this was helped by Captain America being Anti-Reg.

Like, ok sure. You want to have a good character go bad and make mistakes. But when that character is functionally the moral compass of the universe, it gets a bit hard to claim he's in the wrong.

Also, alternate-universe prisons and mind control. And recruiting Punisher. Would he even need to register? Or, for that matter, be able to register without getting dog-piled by SWAT teams?

That whole thing just wasn't a good plan, start to finish.

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#35324: May 29th 2015 at 1:14:08 PM

[up][up]In his defense it turned out to be someone else's corpse!

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35325: May 29th 2015 at 1:14:31 PM

Prison 42 was a cool concept in theory. Like, as an experiment to fix the Cardboard Prison problem that is inevitably doomed to fail, "Let's lock dangerous, uncontainable super-criminals in another dimension entirely!" is pretty nifty.

The problem is that they were using it to hold

  • superheroes
  • without trial
  • in a Lotus-Eater Machine that defeats the point of being in an alternate universe to begin with.

Like many things in Civil War, it was a decent concept utterly ruined by context and execution.

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