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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
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    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#35151: May 28th 2015 at 7:15:13 PM

We actually don't know if Nat can move the hammer in the MCU - she never tried. In the comics, however, there was an AU where she did pick up the hammer and became Thor.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#35152: May 28th 2015 at 7:16:57 PM

The hypothetical that this conversation stemmed from has her worthy enough to wield Mjolnir.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#35153: May 28th 2015 at 7:17:15 PM

That AU was also the original Age of Ultron story, so.

Seriously, screw Marvel for not making an after-credits scene to AOU featuring a flashback to earlier in the movie and Nat just casually lifts the hammer and tosses it around while no one's watching.

[up]I mean, that too, but I was working with the headcanon that Joss Whedon refusing to show her trying and failing to lift the hammer was confirmation that she can, just like in at least one comic.

edited 28th May '15 7:18:20 PM by Zarek

"We're home, Chewie."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#35154: May 28th 2015 at 7:17:44 PM

Okay technically we don't know but if she can then I'm calling bullshit. Cap, Thor, and Vision are the only ones that can believably lift the hammer in my opinion.

[up]Why should she be able to? Nat was a terrible person for years. If Cap can't do it then she definitely shouldn't be able to.

edited 28th May '15 7:18:54 PM by Kostya

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#35155: May 28th 2015 at 7:18:46 PM

Why include Cap? It's clear in the movie that while he can move it a bit, he can't lift it.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#35156: May 28th 2015 at 7:19:40 PM

The fact that he can budge it likely means he's almost worthy so if he undergoes character development in a future movie he probably will lift it at some point.

edited 28th May '15 7:20:08 PM by Kostya

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#35157: May 28th 2015 at 7:19:42 PM

[up][up][up]Keyword: Was.

Thor was also pretty bad for a while and wasn't worthy, remember.

[up]..That's kinda weird, now I think of it. Like, are there levels of being worthy? I figured it was more of a binary thing.

edited 28th May '15 7:20:49 PM by Zarek

"We're home, Chewie."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#35158: May 28th 2015 at 7:21:15 PM

Thor was an arrogant douche but he was never a cold blooded assassin. If Steve Rogers can't do it and Nat can it will be utterly ridiculous.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#35159: May 28th 2015 at 7:21:18 PM

We still don't know what exactly constitutes worthiness as far as Mjolnir is concerned by the by.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#35160: May 28th 2015 at 7:23:11 PM

Nat's not a cold-blooded assassin anymore, though. She's blatantly an out-and-out heroic character now, fully dedicated to being a good person (or trying to be even though she doesn't think she can, anyway).

"We're home, Chewie."
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#35161: May 28th 2015 at 7:27:22 PM

Nat is worthy.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#35162: May 28th 2015 at 7:28:22 PM

That sure is an outfit.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#35163: May 28th 2015 at 7:28:25 PM

Nat's trying to be a good person and she's doing a good job. The thing is Tony, Clint, and Banner are the same way and they can't do it either. Cap came the closest but couldn't do it. Based on what we see in Thor and AOU I think lifting the hammer requires a strong moral compass, humility, courage, and a willingness to stop fighting. By my count Nat fails two of those while Steve probably only fails the last.

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#35164: May 28th 2015 at 7:28:57 PM

I mean I do hope she doesn't change to that outfit if she picks up the hammer in the movies. For one thing it wouldn't match what happened with the Vision, and for another...geez, that outfit...

"We're home, Chewie."
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#35165: May 28th 2015 at 7:29:20 PM

[up]x3, [up] Yeah, but the moment is still pretty badass if you ignore the outfit.

edited 28th May '15 7:29:39 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#35166: May 28th 2015 at 7:29:40 PM

Also, in the comics, Mjolnir develops its own definition of worthiness — which is why Odin can no longer pick it up even though he's the one who put the enchantment on it. (The only one who could pick it up was Jane Foster.)

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#35167: May 28th 2015 at 7:30:32 PM

wild mass guess

My theory on how Thor's hammer functions is that it essentially has a sophisticated system of sensors and an AI that allows it to determine if it's being acted upon by an unworthy force and then precisely counters that force by employing Asgardian science. Usually this process happens so fast that it can't even be perceived by Quicksilver, but with Captain America he was right on the edge of being considered worthy so the hammer took far longer then normal to decide that he was considered an unworthy force.

edited 28th May '15 7:31:02 PM by Falrinn

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#35168: May 28th 2015 at 7:31:09 PM

I think lifting the hammer requires a strong moral compass, humility, courage, and a willingness to stop fighting. By my count Nat fails two

Huh? Which two? By my count, Nat has all four.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#35169: May 28th 2015 at 7:31:30 PM

Like the sorting hat! But with more blunt force trauma!

@Mukora: This is true.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#35170: May 28th 2015 at 7:31:56 PM

... yeah. Whatever Nat was before, she definitely has all those qualities now.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#35171: May 28th 2015 at 7:33:06 PM

I like Natasha, but I don't think she deserves to wield Mjolnir at this point either. Given where her character was at the end of The Winter Soldier it just feels way too sudden. She's just started on her trajectory of moving from amoral Anti-Hero to someone who willfully fights for the greater good. She's more deserving than a Byronic Hero like Tony Stark who is riddled with flaws, but if Cap (who she was basically inspired to be more like) can't lift it, then she wouldn't either. I can't make a judgement about Hawkeye but he's probably on a similar level as Natasha currently is.

edited 28th May '15 7:37:57 PM by AlleyOop

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#35172: May 28th 2015 at 7:33:50 PM

Maybe not humility. I feel like Nat isn't so much humble as she is prideful but with some self-hatred, which is not the same. Humility is a nuanced and fair view of yourself, Nat has a mixture of very high and very low opinions of herself.

I imagine a weapon of the Norse gods would consider a lack of confidence in oneself to be a sin on par with arrogance.

edited 28th May '15 7:34:46 PM by Zarek

"We're home, Chewie."
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#35173: May 28th 2015 at 7:34:04 PM

Vision didn't get a new outfit because he didn't have Thor's power.

"Put Mjolnir in an elevator, elevator still goes up. But the elevator isn't worthy."

My various fanfics.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#35174: May 28th 2015 at 7:34:37 PM

I'm not really sure if Nat is willing to stop fighting and while she's not a villain anymore I don't think I'd characterize her as having a strong moral compass. She's a lot more deceitful and willing to kill than Cap in Winter Soldier. You could make the argument that all the Avengers barring Tony have all those qualities but they couldn't lift it. I don't think it's a binary thing.

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#35175: May 28th 2015 at 7:36:03 PM

I dunno, Cap does a lot of killing. And I don't think being deceitful is less "moral" than being honorable, really. I mean I guess the hammer might see it that way, being Asgardian and all, but.

"We're home, Chewie."

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