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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#35076: May 28th 2015 at 3:39:31 PM

The Ancient One is not a villain.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35077: May 28th 2015 at 3:39:41 PM

Villain? The Ancient One is The Obi-Wan to Strange.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#35078: May 28th 2015 at 3:42:21 PM

Being both Asian and female I have some really mixed thoughts. On the one hand she's an incredible actress and the Ancient One's gender is not important so I welcome the Gender Flip, plus it helps cut down on some of Dr. Strange's Mighty Whitey problems. On the other hand Asian roles especially in the cinema are already so rare that the loss of even one important character is a big blow for representation. I'd have much preferred Swinton in the role of Clea, personally.

While I'm not super upset by this I'd have much preferred them to rewrite the characters to minimize Asian stereotypes in the first place. Maybe cast an older Asian female instead as a Lisa Lisa-like tough mentor figure who still kicks ass directly, especially since Asian media still suffers from being intensely patriarchal. On the other hand since a key part of the Ancient One's character is that he dies, it's now going to invite complaints about fridging, whether justified or not.

edited 28th May '15 3:48:02 PM by AlleyOop

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#35079: May 28th 2015 at 3:45:55 PM

[up]I'm hoping they don't mess up Wong because now I'm worried they might be worried about the Asian dude being his butler and do something stupid with that casting too.

edited 28th May '15 3:46:06 PM by comicwriter

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#35080: May 28th 2015 at 3:46:37 PM

WHOOPS

I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT COMICS MY APOLOGIES

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#35081: May 28th 2015 at 3:49:59 PM

tonguetongue

[up][up] What's worse, having the Ancient One also be white would also make Wong being an "Asian manservant" archetype out like even more of a sore thumb, since now he's the only important person in the organization who is.

edited 28th May '15 3:52:13 PM by KnownUnknown

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#35082: May 28th 2015 at 3:53:30 PM

[up][up][up]

I have a feeling they'll leave Wong out altogether. The character never sat well with me, even after later writers made him a more rounded character. If they do keep him they might Race Lift him into a white guy (a rare case where that actually might be a good thing).

Alternatively they could completely change and invert his relationship with Dr. Strange the same way they did with Bucky. He went from being a kid sidekick who was very close to Cap but his junior in every way, to a more equal relationship where he became basically Steve's older brother (and thus his superior, kind of) who nevertheless deferred to Steve out of love and respect for him.

edited 28th May '15 4:16:19 PM by AlleyOop

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#35083: May 28th 2015 at 3:57:05 PM

An interesting way the animated Dr. Strange movie did it was to have Wong, rather than be an attendant, actually be the one in charge of instructing those in the Ancient One's order - so basically, while The Ancient One is the Obi-Wan, in practice he was more like Yoda while Wong was doing most of the teaching.

Wong was Strange's superior and one of the most accomplished people allied with the Ancient One, but was also not a warrior like some of the other members so he took a non-combat role until he absolutely had to. Keeping a role like that in the movie would work - he's not serving Strange, he's guiding him on the Ancient One's orders. So he aids him on his various spells and adventures, but isn't doing him any favors or catering to his whims.

edited 28th May '15 3:59:57 PM by KnownUnknown

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#35084: May 28th 2015 at 4:20:30 PM

Marvel's first female movie villain.

What about Nebula?

"We're home, Chewie."
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#35085: May 28th 2015 at 4:22:35 PM

I meant, like, primary antagonist, but you're right. Nebula does exist. Also the lady from Iron Man 3 whose name I am very upset I forgot.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#35086: May 28th 2015 at 4:22:52 PM

She was secretly Amy Pond in disguise, infilitrating Thanos' organization on behalf of the Doctor so that the Doctor could team up with Excalibur and the Last Centurion to vworp and zorp and then Thanos is sealed into every mirror, at least until editorial needs him again.

Also, in fairness, "the Ancient One" does sound like a villain title.

[up] Which one, the scientist lady (Maya?) or the veteran lady that had to become a lava woman because we don't always take care of veterans?

edited 28th May '15 4:24:28 PM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#35087: May 28th 2015 at 4:24:14 PM

Oh, also, if we can count non-movie content, then there was what's-her-face. Dang it, I'm upset I forgot her name now. Black Widow Project lady from Agent Carter.

"We're home, Chewie."
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#35088: May 28th 2015 at 4:25:00 PM

Dottie Underwood, though that's probably not her real name.

Also Madame B in Age of Ultron but only in flashbacks.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#35089: May 28th 2015 at 4:26:25 PM

Yelena Belova?

Edit: Also Raina, Jiaying, and Madame Gao if we count TV.

edited 28th May '15 4:27:11 PM by Kostya

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#35090: May 28th 2015 at 4:26:45 PM

Scarlett Witch was a villain for a time, too.

"We're home, Chewie."
Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#35091: May 28th 2015 at 4:28:48 PM

Alright, I am apparently a huge sexist and didn't realize there have actually been a ton of female villains.

In my defense, though, I was referring to main antagonists like Stane or Ronan, and specifically mentioned I was only talking about movies!

@Bocaj: Plant lady.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#35092: May 28th 2015 at 4:29:27 PM

We should totally have a female headlining villain, though. It's one of the reasons I dug the whole "female Radioactive Man" rumor that's been bouncing around for ages, even though it became increasingly obvious it wasn't going to happen years ago.

I'd like them to get away from the whole "female villains should only fight female heroes" thing, too. The same with non-white villains, actually.

edited 28th May '15 4:30:13 PM by KnownUnknown

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#35093: May 28th 2015 at 4:29:42 PM

Maya Hansen.

I remembered her first name, had to look up her last name.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#35094: May 28th 2015 at 4:34:24 PM

[up] I don't know if I'd quite consider Maya Hansen as a villain figure, at least not as much as I'd consider her 616 counterpart in the Extremis arc.

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#35095: May 28th 2015 at 4:34:41 PM

[up][up][up][up]I didn't mean it like that, I was just being contrarian like I always am. Sorry.

Y'know, on the topic of female villains: what female villains are there in the comics? Like, are there a lot of good ones that Marvel hasn't deigned to use because Marvel, or are there slim pickings?

edited 28th May '15 4:34:51 PM by Zarek

"We're home, Chewie."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35096: May 28th 2015 at 4:34:53 PM

Maya Hensen might as well have been a nobody.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#35097: May 28th 2015 at 4:35:24 PM

If we're counting the TV shows then I think Jiaying would count as a headlining female villian. She's the primary antagonist of the Inhumans arc.

[up][up]I don't think there are that many that are clear villains. A lot of them are either Anti Heroes or went through a Heel–Face Turn. Off the top of my head there's only Mystique, the Enchantress, and Madame Hydra.

edited 28th May '15 4:38:58 PM by Kostya

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#35098: May 28th 2015 at 4:36:00 PM

@Zarek: I know, I was making a joke at my own expense, not yours.

[up] Yeah, I would agree with that.

edited 28th May '15 4:36:35 PM by Mukora

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#35099: May 28th 2015 at 4:38:47 PM

[up][up][up] She ultimately contributed very little to the plot, and was written out of the movie in way that just hammered in how little they actually worked with the plot they started with her. The way she was written is the best examples of how bad that movie's writing could get.

edited 28th May '15 4:41:05 PM by KnownUnknown

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#35100: May 28th 2015 at 4:40:34 PM

Having Killian come up with Extremis would have made things a bit more neat and would have meant one less fridging so...

Also, I think the majority of Marvel's female villains were actually heroines that went evil, usually for incredibly stupid reasons.

Just... so dumb.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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