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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#34026: May 14th 2015 at 10:57:12 AM

Speaking of Winter Soldier, was his arm made from the remains of the Destroyer?

#IceBearForPresident
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#34027: May 14th 2015 at 10:58:25 AM

If the Red Skull were to return, I think there'd need to be substantial changes for him to matter in the modern world. Ubermensch blow-up-the-world Hugo Weaving worked great for a WWII pulp, but the modern Skull is a more behind the scenes Complete Monster political schemer.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#34028: May 14th 2015 at 10:59:15 AM

[up][up]No. He had his arm waaaaay before the Destroyer even appeared in the MCU. The gun Coulson used on Loki was made from the Destroyer (and later nicknamed "Bambino").

In the comics, Thor does get his arm cut off and replaces it with the Destroyer's arm.

edited 14th May '15 10:59:43 AM by alliterator

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#34029: May 14th 2015 at 11:11:06 AM

I don't think that anyone can accuse The Joker or Doc Oc as anything but one-dimensional. It's a mixture of performance and scary scenes which make those villains work (arguably...I never liked the movie version of Doc Oc).

I also think that Loki, even if certain people here don't like it or won't admit it, is one of the iconic movie villains. In fact, he is Marvel's answer to Fox's Magneto (whom they use way too often imho...it's always "random anti-Mutant guy and Magneto").

And to be frank, I am glad that Marvel is not afraid to kill off their villains. Not every villain needs to be around for multiple movies. Loki is certainly worth the screen-time, and I look very much forward what they will do with Nebula in the future.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#34030: May 14th 2015 at 11:31:25 AM

Yeah, Nebula is one of the few villains who survive and was much better than the main villain, Ronan. (Although Ronan was fun in that bombastic "You have been judged!" way.)

comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#34031: May 14th 2015 at 11:33:05 AM

[up]It helped that Nebula got some of the best lines. "Thanks, dad."

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#34032: May 14th 2015 at 11:38:35 AM

Fox definitely uses Magneto as their main villain too often, but it's because he's such a fantastic character and has two different amazing actors. (I would have been happier if Fassbender's Magneto had been a protagonist in Days of Future Past and Trask had really been the main villain rather than sidelined.)

Similarly, Marvel re-uses Loki because he's their only interesting villain.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#34033: May 14th 2015 at 11:41:15 AM

I disagreeeeee

I'd love to have another Ultron moment.

I know it won't happen but it'd be fun.

I find that Marvel's disposal villain tendency is in contrast to the X-Men and Fantastic Four movies which just use the same villain over and over and over again.

X-Men is basically the Wolverine and Magneto show. DOFP was a little better by literally hurling Wolverine out of the story so it could sorta kinda be the Mystique and Magneto show a little bit. Could have used more Kitty though.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#34034: May 14th 2015 at 11:43:46 AM

Here's hoping Magneto doesn't upstage Apocalypse in the next movie.

Although if Magneto tries to outvillain Apocalypse, and Poccy just says "LOLNOPE" and effortlessly beats him up, all will be forgiven.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#34035: May 14th 2015 at 11:45:18 AM

Just throw Magneto into the horizon.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#34036: May 14th 2015 at 11:45:22 AM

[up]x4 Only interesting villain? I think Mr.Fisk has something to say that to that...

FISK: YOU EMBARRASSED ME IN FRONT OF THEM!!! {Proceeds to bash Galadriels' brains into a car door.}

edited 14th May '15 11:47:31 AM by kkhohoho

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#34037: May 14th 2015 at 11:45:44 AM

... the elf queen?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#34038: May 14th 2015 at 11:46:45 AM

I meant the MCU movies. Fisk is a fantastic villain, as I stated in my post (previous page) on Marvel's issues with its movie villains.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#34039: May 14th 2015 at 11:47:00 AM

[up][up]Yes. Only not really.

edited 14th May '15 11:47:16 AM by kkhohoho

PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#34041: May 14th 2015 at 12:06:00 PM

I really like Magneto too. Whether he's played by McKellen or Fassbender, he's a great Anti-Villain.

As far as MCU villain go, Hugo Weaving was enjoyably hammy, Jeff Bridges is always good value for money, Ultron had some good moments and Loki works when they play him as an Anti-Villain. Hmmm, I'm starting to notice a pattern in the villains I like....

edited 14th May '15 12:06:15 PM by PurpleDalek

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#34042: May 14th 2015 at 12:11:09 PM

I'm not of the opinion that the Red Skull can come back so easily. He wasn't just transported to god knows where; he was transported to god knows where 70 years ago. Even if he survived wherever he landed, explaining why a guy rounding 100 years old is still a dangerous threat without having him pop out of a block of ice and go, "Haha! I TOO was frozen in time for decades! Now, Captain America, we resume our battle!" is a fairly insurmountable feat.

Not sure he should anyway. If the goal is to have engaging and compelling villains, a literal Evil Nazi is about as one-dimensional as you can get. It worked for the first Captain America movie in which America was actually at war with the Nazis, but for the present, he'd just be another Hydra leader and we've already gotten enough of those.

Hydra was a fantastic reveal but if we get much more of them, they're going to risk overstaying their welcome. Grant Ward looks to be taking them up in Agents Of Shield, but that's effective because of Grant Ward, not the promise of "More Hydra!" Both the show and Age Of Ultron have been pretty unanimous about the idea that at this point, Hydra's leadership is broken, their bases are demolished, their prizes have been plundered...they're done, time to move on to something else before the audience gets bored.

So, ultimately, it would take a lot of effort to plausibly write the Red Skull back into the story just to have him serve a narrative purpose that Strucker or Zemo could have served just as well, in service of a plotline that people are going to get sick of if it sticks around any longer. Even if we needed more one-dimensional villains like Malekith, the ship has sailed on the Red Skull.

EDIT: There is a caveat. There is one place where the Red Skull could reasonably return with minimal difficulty, and that is Agent Carter, which still takes place way back when.

edited 14th May '15 12:14:42 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#34043: May 14th 2015 at 12:13:43 PM

Clearly the time is ripe for a new type of villain

something like a machine organism designed only for killing or konquest or komputation.

Someone that's got a good head on their shoulders and can ham with the best of them.

Are there any villains in Marvel like that?

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#34044: May 14th 2015 at 12:38:19 PM

Another possibility is that people who die to the Infinity Gems have their souls stored in them, and Thanos will summon him as a wraith, as well as the other Stone villains (Malekith-Reality, Ronan-Power, and now Ultron-Mind).

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#34045: May 14th 2015 at 12:41:41 PM

You know how the Red Skull could still be a villain in the MCU? Have his granddaughter decide to carry out the last orders he gave on his deathbed in 1960/70 after being transported to Russia/USA/England or whatever. Even from beyond the grave he can hurt the US and the Captain. Hell, give her some of his preserved blood so she can go toe to toe with Cap. I want to see Sin vs Bucky in a universe where he can't come back from the dead if he lost.

Edit:[up]That's the power of the Soul Stone. Adam Warlock even used it to fight back vs Thanos after he died once while carrying the Gem(Thanos died to him due to this).

edited 14th May '15 12:45:50 PM by LordofLore

PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#34046: May 14th 2015 at 12:42:29 PM

What deathbed? He was vaporised.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#34047: May 14th 2015 at 12:47:42 PM

He probably wasn't. Hugo Weaving confirmed he had a contract for more films, though no guarantee it'd be followed up on. So the previous suggestion has him be teleported back, plot for a few more decades, then die and have his daughter Sin take his place.

Maybe the Guardians will find him on some random planet, amongst a ton of very old teleported HYDRA and US Army soldiers.

edited 14th May '15 12:48:27 PM by Tuckerscreator

Archivist10 Oh for God's sake! Since: Jan, 2013
Oh for God's sake!
#34048: May 14th 2015 at 12:53:27 PM

Thinking back on one of Ultron's moments, the one where he gets punched into the sky after trying to talk himself out of a unfavourable situation 'You know...in hindsight...'.

When Age Of Ultron scenes are available to place on the internet (once the DVD and Bluray are out of course), that someone takes the mentioned scene and adds 'Team Rocket's blasting off again!'

[up]Maybe he'll be the Dragon with an Agenda and/or The Starscream for Thanos.Bit of a long shot I know.

edited 14th May '15 12:54:35 PM by Archivist10

PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#34049: May 14th 2015 at 12:53:43 PM

If the Guardians stumble across Red Skull's skeleton (which I presume is also bright red) on some distant planet that would be so great.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#34050: May 14th 2015 at 1:26:21 PM

One of the things the article brought up that I feel the MCU should do more is have villains transcend just the single movies they're in and have more of an effect on the universe as a whole, like the heroes do. In that sense, the only villains to do that are Loki - as they said - and Thanos, which is more because the plot of the MCU as a whole is currently about him.

For a while there's been an issue of the only villains appearing being huge, conspiracy villains with very specific arcs in relation to the heroes that stop being relevant and thus die when those arcs are over, despite having openings for those villains to have more of an effect on the universe. Even if its something minor like Scarecrow appearing in all three Nolan Batman films, it would've been nice to - say - have AIM not being solely centered around Killian and have a role supplying tech to later villains, for instance.


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