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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33926: May 13th 2015 at 11:15:13 AM

Yeah, of all the complaints about this movie, "I can't believe Ultron wasn't foreshadowed outside of Age of Ultron" isn't one of those I thought I would hear.

The different components of Ultron were set into place. Ultron himself was just for this movie.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33927: May 13th 2015 at 11:16:03 AM

Being foreshadowed in Age Of Ultron would've been nice, at least. Though admittedly, the movie didn't have a lot of time to do so.

The best way to have done would've been to do what they did with the Legion with Ultron himself. Rather than have him be an entirely new element that uses the Legion, perhaps they could've had him be something that grows out of what was already there.

The reason him not being set up comes off as a problem is because the movie expects us to believe that Ultron is something Tony's been working towards for a long time, and that his creation is at the forefront of his mind.

edited 13th May '15 11:18:20 AM by KnownUnknown

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33928: May 13th 2015 at 11:17:40 AM

I think y'all have been spoiled by the MCU for how normal movies work.

[up] Not the forefront. It was a shelved project because it wasn't workable. Suddenly, the mind stone made it workable.

edited 13th May '15 11:18:14 AM by Bocaj

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33929: May 13th 2015 at 11:19:59 AM

[up] It's not just a Marvel thing. Any movie that has poor pacing is worth criticizing in my book.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33930: May 13th 2015 at 11:20:25 AM

[up][up][up] It didn't really need any foreshadowing. All it needed was set up, which happened.

I mean, the real complaint is "Why haven't we heard of Ultron before this?" and the answer is "Because that's exposition and that's boring." Better to skip the part where they explain in depth about the Ultron program and just, you know, set up Ultron itself.

edited 13th May '15 11:20:34 AM by alliterator

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33931: May 13th 2015 at 11:23:07 AM

[up] Ultron is the Ultron program - he himself just kind of appeared and went straight into controlling the plot before actually being fleshed out: most of that happened well after.

Again, the issue isn't that he needed tons of appearances before hand, it's that his execution was introduced and rushed.

Do not try to make this into "we just want tons of unnecessary exposition." Such hyperbole will not work out.

edited 13th May '15 11:27:28 AM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33932: May 13th 2015 at 11:28:20 AM

No, the Ultron program was the program that was shelved because it didn't work without AI. Ultron is the result of the Mind Stone's AI combined with the Ultron program.

Bloodsquirrel Since: May, 2011
#33933: May 13th 2015 at 11:33:41 AM

I think there's less of a problem with Tony's working on Ultron not being set up than there is with Ultron going evil so fast and with no coherent reason. Spending a little bit more time explaining the Ultron project, and by extension Ultron's ultimate personality, would have done the movie good. As it is, we get:

"Ultron wants to rule humanity with an iron fist for their own good!"

"But first, let's kill the Avengers!"

"Actually, I'm just going to blow everyone up... because evolution or something? Maybe only the strongest of humanity will survive? Or none of them at all and I'll just build a robot world? Eh, I'll play it by ear."

"You know, humanity sucks and they'll all die anyway. That's totally why I was doing it."

Also, "it's the mind gem's fault" is a pretty shitty defense of Tony.

1) It's not like it would have been unreasonable to see relying on AI code that you don't understand from a source that you know nothing about but you've only seen used for evil ending badly. It's actually a much, much more obvious error than having a subtle problem with your ground-breaking work in creating sentience pop up.

2) Why is your AI project being done on a computer with internet access? That's like practicing diffusing explosives on live bombs in the middle of an orphanage.

3) Tony turned around and did the same thing again. It worked this time because magical pool dream, but for anyone not reading the script it was an incredibly reckless thing to do.

In retrospect, just having Tony still be under the influence of Scarlet Witch's mind whammy when he pulled an all-nighter to finish his Ultron project would have both done a better job of excusing Tony for Ultron and given a more plausible reason for why he thought that the second go around wouldn't turn immediately evil.

edited 13th May '15 11:38:29 AM by Bloodsquirrel

MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#33934: May 13th 2015 at 11:39:10 AM

Yeah, when I saw the scene with the debate over activating the Vision, I honestly thought the movie was pushing us to side against Tony. Was kind of puzzled why it suddenly worked that time.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33935: May 13th 2015 at 11:42:30 AM

It worked that time because Vision wasn't exposed to the internet.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#33936: May 13th 2015 at 11:46:31 AM

It would have made a great gag reel scene like:

VISION: I am on the side of life.
Vision opens a search bar on a nearby computer.
-beat-
VISION: Yeah...Ultron was right you humans all deserve to die.

edited 13th May '15 11:46:50 AM by vandro

MetaFour AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN from A Place (Old Master)
AXTE INCAL AXTUCE MUN
#33937: May 13th 2015 at 11:48:15 AM

Now I'm imagining an anti-hero Vision. He still saves the world from Ultron, but he acts like the most frustrating internet troll imaginable while he does it.

<shuts off Ultron's internet access> "LOL haxx0red n00b!"

Bloodsquirrel Since: May, 2011
#33938: May 13th 2015 at 12:10:07 PM

[up]That's what Ultron should have been like.

I mean, he was already impossible to take seriously with all of the mugging.

"You're actually trying to destroy the world?!"

"YOLO!"

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33939: May 13th 2015 at 12:15:05 PM

It worked the second time around because it was based on Jarvis and not on whatever "defend the world at all cost" program Tony created beforehand. We know that Jarves is programmed to protect Tony and to keep the causalities count during the battle as low as possible.

Or, to put it this way: Ultron was programmed to defend in the way project Insight was created with the intention to defend but got corrupted and became the aggressor instead. Jarvis was programmed to protect. He is pretty much the representation of Steve's side of the argument, while Ultron represents Tony's. I think it is pretty clear who is right, even if Tony's position is understandable.

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#33940: May 13th 2015 at 12:21:55 PM

I think Ultron's creation worked well enough for the context of the movie. What bugs me is his personality, which I think was established in a confusing way. I did eventually understand he was supposed to be more humanlike than most A.I.s in movies, but other than that I don't understand what he was trying to do or why his motives and opinion seemed to shift so much.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33941: May 13th 2015 at 12:37:17 PM

I don't think Ultron fully understood what his motives and intentions were. He was built on fundamentally irreconcilable objectives. Stark programmed him to protect the world. The Scepter AI was meant to exterminate the Earth, gather the other Infinity Gems, and return home to Thanos. These two objectives form the basis of "the homicidal glitch he calls his winning personality."

Ultron had a lot of different ideas for how exactly to carry out his two equally important missions of

  1. SAVE mankind.
  2. EXTERMINATE mankind.

resulting in a lot of complicated logic trains about how destroying the Earth will save the Earth in a roundabout way if you turn your head and squint.

edited 13th May '15 12:40:07 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#33942: May 13th 2015 at 12:43:28 PM

[up]I guess that makes sense. I just wished they would have made it more clear in the actual movie, because it wasn't very clear to me.

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#33943: May 13th 2015 at 12:48:16 PM

[up][up]What about Vision then? Wasn't the gem also a part of it?

Khfan429 Since: Aug, 2009
#33944: May 13th 2015 at 12:50:46 PM

Assuming the point about Ultron being a ploy on the part of Thanos is correct, the program was likely contained within the protective casing around the stone. It's incredibly doubtful that even Thanos can screw with a genuine Infinity Stone.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33945: May 13th 2015 at 12:54:25 PM

On a different note, Feige mentioned in an interview that the contracts of some actors have been renewed. He didn't say which ones (or what the matter is with his own contract), but it makes me really glad that at least some of the original team will stick around for longer. I especially hope that they somehow managed to convince Chris Evans.

KJMackley Since: Jan, 2001
#33946: May 13th 2015 at 1:00:52 PM

Between JARVIS and the Iron Legion that is enough set-up for Ultron as you really need. Tony namedropping the Ultron project beforehand is just blatant Sequel Hook and something the MCU is slowly trying to tone down (I find it amusing they had to specify "No after credits stinger, just a mid-credits one, don't bother waiting it out."). Tony even mentioned in the movie that JARVIS is the most advanced AI he could design and probably WOULD be the backbone of the "Suit of Armor around the world" idea if he was powerful enough.

Of course, even though he was facing the Avengers the Ultron clones put up a rather pathetic showing so it's a wonder how useful he would be in the advent of another Chitauri-esque invasion. Tony's idea seemed to be that each one would be close to having an actual human intelligence and reaction times (making it close to him in terms of usefulness in battle), but a Alpha!Ultron had a hard enough time just dealing with Capt.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33947: May 13th 2015 at 1:06:31 PM

[up]Honestly, they could have skipped the mid credits scene, too. The fact that Thanos is able to leave his chair after all is not that big of a stinger. Showing what Loki is up to or a glimpse on Spider-man would have excited me more.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#33948: May 13th 2015 at 1:09:35 PM

They probably haven't finished casting for Spidey or concretized their plans for Ragnarok yet. I'm actually glad Whedon's Captain Marvel and Spidey cameos got nixed, as it would just complicate their own narratives.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33949: May 13th 2015 at 1:13:07 PM

To be fair, there was no Spider-Man cameo in the first place. The deal wasn't in place yet, it was still being hammered out. Whedon said he would have loved to put in a cameo, but there was no chance of that happening.

Now, he did say he wanted to include Captain Marvel, but Feige convinced him to nix it because it was too early and there wasn't any explanation for her being there.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#33950: May 13th 2015 at 1:14:19 PM

The Thanos stinger, I feel, was useful because it suggested that Ultron coming about was his Plan B in case Loki failed, and an understandable reason for why he would loan an entire Infinity Stone. But that could have also been clear in different ways like say, a brief cut to Thanos's hand just before the Ultron program activates, making it more clear that he's the reason why the AI spontaneously arose.


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