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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#33901: May 13th 2015 at 10:16:36 AM

[up]Although the fact that Tony was willing to screw around with the incredibly powerful unknown magical artifact doesn't exactly make him look much better...

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33902: May 13th 2015 at 10:18:36 AM

It makes him look plenty better. Attempting to utilize technology you don't fully understand and only realizing your mistake when it's too late is an easier mistake to gloss over than spending hundreds of man-hours coding a machine and somehow missing the fact that you, of your own volition and with zero interference from anyone else, set its moral compass to genocide.

The first is a screw-up. The latter is so impossibly criminally negligent that you should, by all rights, never be trusted around technology again.

edited 13th May '15 10:20:12 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#33903: May 13th 2015 at 10:23:57 AM

IM 3 should've ended with Tony starting to work on an AI/Ultron so that he doesn't have to be Iron Man anymore instead of blowing up all his armors(what was even the point of that? He's back in the suit and blowing up Hydra bases like a week later).

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#33904: May 13th 2015 at 10:24:53 AM

[up][up]I still don't think Tony ought to be trusted around technology ever again... In fact, the only reason Tony doesn't just have the Idiot Ball crammed firmly up his butt during this movie is because Scarlet Witch did that brainwashy-vision thing to him, which coupled with his PTSD from Iron Man 3 probably means that Tony has some serious mental problems and shouldn't be allowed near world-changing technology anymore until he's gotten those straightened out.

edited 13th May '15 10:25:30 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#33905: May 13th 2015 at 10:25:52 AM

@Tobias Drake-

I see your point about it making him unusable as a protagonist, but I'm going to put it out there that maybe it is a problem how yet again the plot is written to give Tony a "pass" for his bad actions.

I mean in Earths Mightiest Heroes, it seemed to basically work out that although Hank blamed it on Humans Are Bastards, there was this negative element lurking in his desire for peace and that element ended up dominating Ultron's mind. There's no reason why the same couldn't have been true of Tony's Ultron, especially because there's set up for it in how Tony talks about privatizing world peace and putting an Iron Shield around the world; not to mention that the AOU Ultron even acts a lot like Tony.

edited 13th May '15 10:26:24 AM by Hodor2

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33906: May 13th 2015 at 10:25:59 AM

Man, I've heard complains that Age of Ultron was too much setup, but now y'all apparently want more setup.

Ultron was a surprise villain. That doesn't mean there was no buildup. That means the buildup in the first part of the movie was subtle - the images of the Iron Legion (with the voice of James Spader!), Wanda giving Tony a vision of the future and him trying to avoid that by going to Bruce Banner and saying "Let's create something to protect the world."

See? That is good buildup.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33907: May 13th 2015 at 10:29:24 AM

This is the first I've heard of there being a complaint of too much setup in Age Of Ultron. Usually the complaint is that the movie's pacing was too rushed.

edited 13th May '15 10:29:36 AM by KnownUnknown

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33908: May 13th 2015 at 10:29:59 AM

I don't mind how Ultron came to be. In fact, I am glad that they didn't spend too much time on pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo. And that Tony would work on something like that is just the next logical step of what he did in Iron Man 3.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33909: May 13th 2015 at 10:32:55 AM

[up][up] I've heard people complain that there was too much set up for Infinity War.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33910: May 13th 2015 at 10:35:43 AM

I see your point about it making him unusable as a protagonist, but I'm going to put it out there that maybe it is a problem how yet again the plot is written to give Tony a "pass" for his bad actions.

I mean in Earths Mightiest Heroes, it seemed to basically work out that although Hank blamed it on Humans Are Bastards, there was this negative element lurking in his desire for peace and that element ended up dominating Ultron's mind. There's no reason why the same couldn't have been true of Tony's Ultron, especially because there's set up for it in how Tony talks about privatizing world peace and putting an Iron Shield around the world; not to mention that the AOU Ultron even acts a lot like Tony.

Only if you consider those things to be bad, which the film doesn't. For all his bluster about "privatizing world peace", is that not exactly what Tony's done not only as Iron Man but also in creating the Avengers? The Avengers are a privatized global peacekeeping force.

And Tony actually got his Iron Shield; Vision's creation vindicated his entire stance. That entire scene is basically,

  • CAP: Shit, Tony's going to f*ck things up again, we have to stop him!
  • STARK: This is going to be sweet!
  • CAP: No, you're going to ruin the world and doom us all again!
  • THOR: I VOTE IN TONY'S FAVOR!!!
  • CAP: Hubba-wha?
  • VISION: Hello. As an AI, I am my own entity, but I am basically everything Tony Stark envisioned when he started the Ultron project. Allow me to demonstrate how my creation was not, in any way, a mistake and will actually save the world by picking up Mjolnir.
  • CAP: ...wait, so I was the one in the wrong here?
  • STARK: Suck it.

"Tony Stark always makes the world a worse place and every idea he has is a terrible one that dooms mankind" is not, nor has it ever been, a theme in the MCU. Both his "privatized world peace" and his Iron Shield around the World idea have great consequences that made the world safer.

edited 13th May '15 10:37:52 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#33911: May 13th 2015 at 10:37:00 AM

[up][up]There's a world of difference between setup for the next movie and setup for the current movie we are paying money to watch in theaters. I'd take a fleshed out Ultron over more "Thanos is coming! Thanos is coming!" any day of the week.

edited 13th May '15 10:37:17 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33912: May 13th 2015 at 10:37:55 AM

Well, the numbers from China are tickling in...And Ao U managed the highest Marvel opening so far. It should be in the top 30 of the highest grossing movies this week.

And Disney has crossed the 2 Billion mark again, because so far all their movies have been box office successes.

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#33913: May 13th 2015 at 10:49:29 AM

I'll be honest, I'm all for any reading that has people sticking it to Cap. Especially if it's Tony.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33914: May 13th 2015 at 10:52:28 AM

There's a world of difference between setup for the next movie and setup for the current movie we are paying money to watch in theaters. I'd take a fleshed out Ultron over more "Thanos is coming! Thanos is coming!" any day of the week.

I know you disagree, but I think there is plenty of set-up in the actual movie for Ultron. I listed all of that in my previous post.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33916: May 13th 2015 at 11:02:05 AM

"Plenty" = "three or more."

The buildup in the first part of the movie was subtle - the images of the Iron Legion (with the voice of James Spader!), Wanda giving Tony a vision of the future and him trying to avoid that by going to Bruce Banner and saying "Let's create something to protect the world."

See? Three or more.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33917: May 13th 2015 at 11:03:43 AM

I'm basically with alliterator.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33918: May 13th 2015 at 11:04:15 AM

The only one of those that's actually set up for Ultron is the last thing, since Bruce and Tony are working on Ultron.

The issue is that Ultron himself didn't have adequate lead-in, not that the climate that would cause his creation was already in place - basically, that Ultron is an example of Remember the New Guy? who gets introduced as a concept that was supposedly there all along almost immediately before his plot executes.

The Iron Legion has been around since Iron Man 3, but Ultron took control of them. They weren't an aspect of his own origin nor was their existence really used as a set up for his creation (they could have used them that way, so it was a pretty neat idea, but they didn't). Likewise, the vision is about Tony, and sets up his own issues. It doesn't establish that he's creating Ultron, it's just used to explain his haste in doing so.

edited 13th May '15 11:07:20 AM by KnownUnknown

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#33919: May 13th 2015 at 11:06:18 AM

I find it amusing, now that I think about it, that Ultron was supposed to be more effective than the Iron Legion and yet if anything his mook army was even weaker than the Chitauri.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33920: May 13th 2015 at 11:07:11 AM

Ultron was a combination of the AI in the Mind Stone and the Iron Legion. Literally. That's what Tony and Bruce were trying to do - extract the AI and see if it was viable to control the Iron Legion and create something to protect the world.

As you said, both Loki's Scepter and the Iron Legion were introduced beforehand.

So when someone says "Ultron had no set-up," what I'm assuming that means is "The name 'Ultron' had no setup." Because beside the name, yes, there was setup.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33921: May 13th 2015 at 11:08:00 AM

Ultron was a combination of the AI in the Mind Stone and the Iron Legion. Literally.

[up] Yes. Both of which are established all at once, immediately after the Ultron project's sudden and un-alluded to introduction. It's basically "hey! We're doing Ultron!" -> "hey! Let's use this thing we found on Utlron!" ->" "hey! Let's connect him to the Iron Legion" and finally "hey! Ultron is evil" in very quick succession and with barely any real time to develop any of those points.

If anything, those plot developments being haphazardly applied to Ultron's origin makes it worse - especially the same scene is also dedicated to giving the Scepter characteristics it didn't have before.

edited 13th May '15 11:10:29 AM by KnownUnknown

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33922: May 13th 2015 at 11:10:03 AM

What? Loki's Scepter was established in The Avengers as given to him by Thanos. The Iron Legion was established back in Iron Man 3 (controlled by JARVIS) and the very beginning of AOU (controlled by a James Spader AI).

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33923: May 13th 2015 at 11:11:43 AM

Ultron being a combination of the Iron Legion and the scepter, as you said, were introduced after the Ultron project's abrupt introduction.

Again, them merely existing is not the same as them being used as set-up. They very clearly weren't - in each of their initial appearances, they have a very different role. It's the universe going backward and reusing elements that were already there, not going forward and setting up something for the future.

edited 13th May '15 11:13:20 AM by KnownUnknown

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33924: May 13th 2015 at 11:13:57 AM

I think it has been established multiple times that those stones have power of their own which can be used outside of just grabbing them and sticking them in some sort of weapon to wield. The Red Skull and Shield both wanted to use the Tesseract for energy, so why should the mind stone not be useful for creating A.I.s?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33925: May 13th 2015 at 11:14:24 AM

Nobody said it having new abilities was a problem.

edited 13th May '15 11:14:40 AM by KnownUnknown


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