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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
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If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33801: May 12th 2015 at 2:19:13 PM

You're engaging in far too much generalizing here. You keep making the leap from "Somebody acknowledges that SHIELD is a problem" to assuming that they no longer believe in any sort of secrecy or spying at all, even when presented with direct evidence to the contrary. Hell, even when you're *posting* direct evidence to the contrary. Re-read the conversation you posted. Nick Fury still believes that SHIELD can be salvaged. He's just in a very poor bargaining position.

Yes, Fury still believes in his side, but he's outvoted for no reason. His poor bargaining position is the result of Widow and Hill abandoning his side because Widow has done a complete about-face on her faith in S.H.I.E.L.D. as a consequence of Hydra's involvement, and Hill never even gives a reason for why she's suddenly opposed to S.H.I.E.L.D., she just votes for Cap's idea because reasons.

Given that the people present for the scene are

  • Captain America, who's been arguing against S.H.I.E.L.D.'s activities from the start.
  • Falcon, who's only here because he's buddies with Cap.
  • Black Widow, one of Fury's must trusted and loyal agents.
  • Maria Hill, Fury's right-hand woman.
  • Nick Fury himself, who's been arguing in favor of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s activities from the start.

Cap should be outvoted 2-3. Even with Widow switching sides, Cap could win by a close 3-2. But the film felt the need to make it 4-1 without giving even the slightest reason why Hill would suddenly agree that S.H.I.E.L.D.'s total destruction is the only possible solution.

Falcon, Widow, and Hill are the swing votes between Cap and Fury's sides, and all three unanimously agree that Cap is right regardless of whether or not their votes make sense. As I said earlier, there isn't even a debate; everyone agrees with Fury, then Hydra reveals itself, and then everyone agrees with Cap. The debate is settled by the fact that Hydra represents Security and therefore Security is bad.

edited 12th May '15 2:21:47 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#33802: May 12th 2015 at 2:38:40 PM

Probably because Hill has to deal with Hydra's takeover herself, through having to sneak by as a fake security guard. And even though The Aveners had to cut all her scenes where she had friction with Nick Fury and disagreed with his method, that still shouldn't mean that she's thus always onboard with everything he says. We don't get a claim of that either.

The debate is settled by the fact that Hydra represents Security and therefore Security is bad.

Way too much generalizing. The debate is settled by the fact Hydra represents Security by death on its own populace. Security by defense from an attacking enemy is what Steve was fine with SHIELD doing. "Punishment after the crime", he puts it.

Anyway, the original point were this all started was the claim that The Winter Soldier followed up on its themes and Age of Ultron didn't. Whether or not one agrees with those themes and how they followed up on them is a different matter, but they were addressed by the end of the film, as opposed to brought up once then never again.

edited 12th May '15 2:39:11 PM by Tuckerscreator

Bloodsquirrel Since: May, 2011
#33803: May 12th 2015 at 2:38:45 PM

Hill never even gives a reason for why she's suddenly opposed to S.H.I.E.L.D.,

"SHIELD has been infiltrated so thoroughly that they convinced us to build three giant flying murder machines that they're about to use to take over the world" is a pretty damn good reason.

You claim the movie as strawmaning pro-security people, then complain about pro-security characters having the audacity to recognize when an agency has gone too far.

And I'd like to point out the irony that you have, by yourself, posted more examples of Winter Soldier discussing it's main theme than can be presented for Ao U discussing any particular theme, despite your original point being that Winter Soldier couldn't be said to have such.

As I said earlier, there isn't even a debate; everyone agrees with Fury, then Hydra reveals itself, and then everyone agrees with Cap. The debate is settled by the fact that Hydra represents Security and therefore Security is bad.

The debate isn't "settled" at all. Hydra goes so far that everybody who isn't a straight-up villain has to help stop them. The degree to which anyone disagrees with Steve is made temporarily irrelevant unless they're willing to let Hydra kill millions of people. The denouement of the movie makes it 100% clear that the issue *isn't* settled. What was it Black Widow said, again? That they still needed people like her?

edited 12th May '15 2:45:57 PM by Bloodsquirrel

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33804: May 12th 2015 at 2:45:50 PM

Nothing of what I've posted has been a discussion. It's been statements of characters' conclusions. Nobody actually discusses the theme in the movie; Cap and Fury assert their stances from the beginning, then Hydra happens and everyone immediately switches sides to Cap's.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bloodsquirrel Since: May, 2011
#33805: May 12th 2015 at 2:48:47 PM

[up]You were the actual person who posted an argument between Steven and Nick Fury.

What you are saying is simply counter-factual, and I'm not sure what else can be said if you can even post direct examples of the theme being discussed while still claiming that they don't exist.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33806: May 12th 2015 at 2:52:05 PM

My point is that the conversation that took place there wasn't a debate. It was Cap asserting dominance.

  • FURY: So, this is how we save S.H.I.E.L.D..
  • CAP: Nope. S.H.I.E.L.D. sucks, you suck, and we're burning everything to the ground.
  • EVERYONE ELSE: Agreement with Cap's decision is my only voice in this conversation!
  • FURY: ...well, guess that's that.

There wasn't a discussion. There weren't points made or counterpoints offered. There was only Cap telling Fury what's what, and Fury being forced to comply. It was the conversational equivalent of a person being dogpiled in a forum argument; the person being dogpiled will eventually give up and stop trying, but that doesn't mean a debate took place or that either side presented rational points.

edited 12th May '15 2:55:23 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#33807: May 12th 2015 at 2:56:38 PM

"Why do you think we're in this cave? I noticed." "How many paid the price before you did?" "Look, I didn't know about Barnes..." "Even if you had known, would you have told me? Or would you have compartmentalized that too?"

Those sound a lot like point-counterpoint debate to me, not merely stating one truth with no argument.

edited 12th May '15 2:56:49 PM by Tuckerscreator

Bloodsquirrel Since: May, 2011
#33808: May 12th 2015 at 2:56:38 PM

[up][up]Yes, it's not a debate, as long as you ignore the actual words spoken and replace them with a four-line summary.

I present, to you, the entirety of Ao U:

Ultron: "I'M A BAD ROBOT!" Avengers: "WE KILLED YOU!"

Anyone who says that Ao U had any depth beyond that is wrong and stupid forever.

I feel, at this point, that this conversation has gotten as ridiculous as it needs to be and that we should all politely forget that it went on this long.

edited 12th May '15 2:58:09 PM by Bloodsquirrel

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33809: May 12th 2015 at 2:57:51 PM

[up][up] ...fair enough.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33810: May 12th 2015 at 3:01:58 PM

Man, fuck Fury for assuming Steve's just mad about Bucky, and fuck Steve for giving a retort that basically confirms it.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33811: May 12th 2015 at 3:05:34 PM

I honestly don't think that Steve wanting to take down Shield in this specific situation in which it turns out that the organisation is full of Hydra agents equals him thinking that Shield in itself is a bad concept. It is after all the organisation Peggy started. The movie even sais it itself through Peggy: Sometimes you need to tear something down in order to build something better. It doesn't say "Tear it down and salt the earth".

The scene in question is not about the worth of Shield, it is about the right method to defeat Hydra. Fury wants to do it in a way that the world doesn't notice, because he believes in secrecy above everything else. Steve on the other hand believes that secrets are problematic and undermine the team effort (by the way another thing which pops up again in Age of Ultron, alas very briefly). And in this specific situation Maria Hill and Natasha agree that going out in the open and exposing Hydra is the right way, even if it will expose Shield, too.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33812: May 12th 2015 at 3:50:47 PM

Its weird that anyone would come out of Age of Ultron thinking Ultron was just an evil robot.

Sure, he had logic that would make a cyberman blush but he thought he was doing the right thing to save humanity by wiping it out and upgrade/replacing it with mighty metal people.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#33813: May 12th 2015 at 3:52:31 PM

...Shit. Ultron is basically a cyberman.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33814: May 12th 2015 at 3:53:04 PM

Well, that's not fair. Cybermen are not robots. They have human parts in there, too.

GethKnight Since: Apr, 2010
#33815: May 12th 2015 at 3:55:42 PM

Ultron wants to make Cybermen.

Mukora Uniocular from a place Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Uniocular
#33816: May 12th 2015 at 3:58:44 PM

Nah, Ultron isn't Qlippothic enough.

"It's so hard to be humble, knowing how great I am."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33817: May 12th 2015 at 3:59:18 PM

The cybermen barely swing that themselves most days

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#33818: May 12th 2015 at 4:00:47 PM

So does this make Vision a good Cyberman? Is he the Cybermen's version of Rusty the Dalek?

"We're home, Chewie."
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#33819: May 12th 2015 at 4:12:42 PM

The Cybermen already had a Rusty equivalent before Rusty in the form of Kroton from DW Magazine, who managed to regain his emotions before wandering the universe for a while to make sense of his existence.

And then he became a Companion of the 8th Doctor. I am not kidding.

edited 12th May '15 4:15:57 PM by kkhohoho

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#33820: May 12th 2015 at 4:23:18 PM

Having read the article on what was cut from Age of Ultron, and learning that it's basically a one-hour massive exposition sequence about the Infinity Stones and whatnot with Thor (the least interesting character), I no longer feel any need to see the extended edition.

That subplot could have used a little more time, as it felt like it came out of nowhere; or, alternatively, it could have been cut entirely (meaning Vision would cut as well) and been replaced with a bit more breathing space in the story. But it certainly didn't need an hour; that would be turning Age of Ultron into another Iron Man 2, with the focus more on setting up future films than on its actual plot.

edited 12th May '15 4:24:11 PM by Galadriel

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#33821: May 12th 2015 at 4:43:10 PM

[up]I'm pretty sure that the whole exposition sequence didn't take a whole hour. I'm also pretty sure that most of that hour will be taken up by a bunch of different things that give the movie breathing room, rather than a needlessly overly long exposition sequence. I don't think even Whedon would go that far. (Now, if Chris Claremont got a chance to direct a movie...)

edited 12th May '15 4:43:39 PM by kkhohoho

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#33822: May 12th 2015 at 4:50:46 PM

Yeah, I was gonna say, how the heck do you stretch the Infinity Stone exposition into a whole hour?

"Well, Thor, let me give you a detailed history of the Celestials' rise to power. It all started near the dawn of time-"

"Um, actually, there's this evil robot running around Midgard, so if you could give me the short version-"

"Quiet, this is important! Now, the Celestials were incredibly powerful beings of an ancient race..."

edited 12th May '15 4:52:39 PM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#33823: May 12th 2015 at 4:52:23 PM

Well, that's what the article said.

The original scene was that he went to speak to the Norns," Whedon said, referring to female beings in Norse mythology who control destiny. Basically, Norns are analogous to The Fates in Greek Mythology. "How it would work was, he goes into the pool, and the Norns possess him, basically. And Erik Selvig asks all the questions, and the Norns, speaking through Thor, give the answers.

That's literally a giant Exposition Dump via Possessed Thor. Whedon admitted that it "didn't play well for test audiences".

edited 12th May '15 4:53:16 PM by Galadriel

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#33825: May 12th 2015 at 4:58:36 PM

[up][up]What I See: Thorn giving an exposition sequence. What I Don't See: Anything that says the whole sequence takes an hour.

Trust me, even Whedon would be insane to make an exposition sequence that long. It's not gonna' happen, and if it does happen, feel free to tell me you told me so. But I'm pretty sure it's not gonna' happen.

edited 12th May '15 4:59:05 PM by kkhohoho


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