TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Marvel Cinematic Universe

Go To

Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33701: May 12th 2015 at 9:46:53 AM

[up] Yeah, we got what you were trying to say. "Everything must be related to the main plot. EVERYTHING."

I just think that line of reasoning is bullshit.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#33702: May 12th 2015 at 9:49:10 AM

[up]I think that line of reasoning would make for a better movie than what I saw in theaters...

And even so, people weren't refuting me with "NO EVERYTHING DOESN'T HAVE TO BE RELATED TO THE MAIN PLOT!" I was refuted with "YOU WANT THE WOMEN OUT OF THE STORY OMG YOU MONSTER!"

edited 12th May '15 9:49:33 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33703: May 12th 2015 at 9:53:45 AM

[up] Saying that everything must be related to the main plot not only gets rid of extraneous subplots, but also gets rid of everything else.

Ultron versus the Avengers, right? Well, get rid of Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. No more nightmare visions. No more Infinity Stones. Heck, no more Mind Stone. Klaw? Nope, not needed. Ultron just gets some Vibranium from...somewhere. Hawkeye's farm? Welp, that's out, no need to humanize him or even show him. No Black Widow either. We don't need Nick Fury or Maria Hill.

Wait, are the Avengers even needed? If the story is about Ultron, it should just be about Tony Stark and Ultron then. No more Avengers!

And that's when we call it Iron Man 4: Age of Ultron. Except the Iron Man movies have subplots in them, too, so that wouldn't work. So just call the movie Ultron.

I'm sure everyone would love that movie. [/sarcasm]

edited 12th May '15 9:54:28 AM by alliterator

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33704: May 12th 2015 at 9:54:26 AM

Wait, but Scarlet Witch does help prompt Ultron being built.

By your logic, she needs to be left in.

And she needs a whole spectrum of alt universe selves. A Silver Sorceress and an Emerald Enchanter!

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
jakobitis Doctor of Doctorates from Somewhere, somewhen Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Doctor of Doctorates
#33705: May 12th 2015 at 9:54:46 AM

If you go on the most literal basis Black Widow is just as important to the plot as (for example) Thor. I mean, Hulk can punch things as hard or harder, Iron Man can zap away from a distance. What is the actual need for Thor? Black Widow at least had her moment of fooling Loki to prove sometimes you need a spy instead of a bunch of fighters. Now whether she was used well IN AOU, that's another story. But she's got a place/use in the Avengers as a team for sure.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#33706: May 12th 2015 at 9:56:06 AM

[up][up][up][up]

Because your rewrite contributes to the already-present idea that white men matter more and that their stories are more important than anyone else's. People aren't trying to accuse you of actually being X-ist, and I don't believe in the idea of quotas or shoehorning characters for the sake of representation if there's no organic place in the story for them, but there's ways to improve a story without diminishing visibility among marginalized groups, especially when studies show that representation matters quite a lot to their wellbeing.

edited 12th May '15 10:02:16 AM by AlleyOop

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33707: May 12th 2015 at 9:57:02 AM

How many of the Wasps are also She-Hulks?

All of them.

They are also all Gwen Stacy, too.

I don't appreciate your tone. Because some of them need to be Captain Marvel too.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33708: May 12th 2015 at 9:57:11 AM

Concerning Romance: Peter and Gwen is easily the best written romance we ever got in a Comic Book movie, followed by Steve and Peggy, but that romance mostly works because it never really happens. It is more the possibility of a relationship which never really come to fruition because of the war, which is exactly why it is so interesting (other than Peggy being awesome). Otherwise romances are for me something which doesn't disturb anything in the best case, and most of the time they are downright annoying. I recently discussion Vision/Wanda with someone (because that's what happens in the Comics) and I if they do it in the MCU, I hope that they DON'T spend time showing us how they fall in love. In the next movie they can give some hints that they care for each other so that nobody is surprised that they are together when they turn up again, but I honestly don't need to see how those two fall in love. I need to see them dealing with the problems which might arise when they are already in a relationship.

I agree with whoever said that Natasha should have been sneaking around somewhere in the first fight. She most likely didn't because they wanted her to be part of the group-shot. But I certainly don't think that Natasha is not relevant, because she is always the one who has to make the hard decisions. There is always a lot of talk about Tony flying the bomb into space, but having to close the portal knowing that she would most likely cut off his way home is just as gutsy in another way.

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#33709: May 12th 2015 at 9:58:41 AM

Blue Bruja! Violet Volva! Chrome Crone! I could do this all day!

"We're home, Chewie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33710: May 12th 2015 at 9:59:38 AM

I hope you do!

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#33711: May 12th 2015 at 10:03:22 AM

Doesn't Iron Man install his suits with some sort of anti-EMP detection system? I seem to remember Bucky trying to fry him with his arm after Steve's death in the comics and it didn't work as a result.

Yes he does, but his countermeasure basically boiled down to "turn off the suit for a few seconds to avoid the EMP, then turn it back on once it's over." That wouldn't work well with large scale EMPs like out Pacific Rim or the latest Godzilla, especially not if the armor was in flight at the time. Bucky's EMP was rather close-range.

edited 12th May '15 10:03:50 AM by Tuckerscreator

higherbrainpattern Since: Apr, 2012
#33713: May 12th 2015 at 10:11:30 AM

I wonder who's kicking the bucket. I hope it's a minor SHIELD agent. Or Dum Dum Dugan.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#33715: May 12th 2015 at 10:15:36 AM

[up]On Twitter recently she did seem to indicate she's not coming back, so you might be on to something...

edited 12th May '15 10:15:55 AM by comicwriter

Wackd Since: May, 2009
#33716: May 12th 2015 at 10:16:54 AM

Is there really anything we can do with modern-day Peg besides just endless repeats of her scenes in Winter Soldier? (And making her young again in some hackneyed fashion?) I wouldn't mind them killing her off. It's not like it'll preclude us getting more Agent Carter.

Maybe you'd be less disappointed if you stopped expecting things to be Carmen Sandiego movies.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33717: May 12th 2015 at 10:17:16 AM

EMP-shielding is a thing that exists with today's regular technology. Whether or not Tony's suits are appropriately EMP-shielded depends entirely on what the writer wants to happen. It's not uncommon for Tony to go straight from getting fried in one story to delivering a No-Sell in the next and making a snippy comment about how smart he is and why you would possibly think he hadn't accounted for that glaring vulnerability, to getting fried again in the next.

It's like Wolverine's stamina. He goes down when the plot needs him to go down, and is invulnerable when it doesn't.

edited 12th May '15 10:18:55 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
comicwriter Since: Sep, 2011
#33718: May 12th 2015 at 10:18:07 AM

[up][up]True enough. And she was already in bad states in the last one.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#33719: May 12th 2015 at 10:26:07 AM

Saying that everything must be related to the main plot not only gets rid of extraneous subplots, but also gets rid of everything else.

I think you're exaggerating my point a wee bit. Age of Ultron felt choppy and disconnected with way too many characters, and I think the movie would've been improved if it'd been streamlined and more focused. That's all I'm trying to say. I don't think characters like Hawkeye and Black Widow are inherently worthless, but I think they'd do better in their own movies or ones like Winter Soldier with smaller casts.

The unfocused nature of Age of Ultron was a major detriment to my enjoyment of it, and if this keeps up in Civil War and Infinity War, my stance is gonna slide from "I love the Avengers!" to "The Avengers movies are fun but have problems" all the way to "The Avengers movies are a convoluted mess that spiraled out of control, and maybe shared movie universes are a bad idea..." I hope that doesn't happen. I really, sincerely hope I like Civil War better. But Age of Ultron didn't work for me, and I'm just trying to explain why and what I would've done to fix it.

Wait, but Scarlet Witch does help prompt Ultron being built. By your logic, she needs to be left in.

She was kind of indirectly relevant, yeah, but it could've just as easily been some Hydra goon poking Tony's head with Loki's staff or something causing him to see the nightmare vision for a minute. Or, y'know, it could've been a regular, non-magical PTSD vision, like in Iron Man 3.

Really, any plot point could've been done by any character within reason (like how Tony built Ultron despite it being Hank in the comics). It doesn't really matter who fulfilled what role in the story so long as the story gets told and the characters each get a decent amount of development.

Like I said, the cast of the Avengers movies is just arbitrary to some extent. I think maybe five would be a nice, solid number of Avengers for one movie to focus on, even if they're not all relevant to the main plot, but nine is just way too many in my opinion. The medium itself doesn't lend itself well to that many protagonists. I mean, there's a reason we're back down to six Avengers at the end of the movie.

It's not like the Maximoffs have a long and storied history of being a part of the Avengers in the comics or anything.

They weren't in the Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon, and that show was great. And, y'know, the movies could've just held off and introduced the twins later on down the line. We don't have to get all the iconic stuff right away.

Because your rewrite contributes to the already-present idea that white men matter more and that their stories are more important than anyone else's.

No, the movie itself contributes perfectly fine to that idea without my rewrite required. The "main characters" of the movie were Tony and Ultron. Like alliterator said, if you boiled it down to its bare essentials, this movie could've just been "Iron Man 4: Age of Ultron." The whole conflict of Age of Ultron is centered around a white dude and the decisions a white dude made. When the heck did Black Widow ever make a decision that "mattered" to the central conflict? Was it when she decided to make goo-goo eyes at the Hulk?

Now, Scarlet Witch, yes, did make decisions that mattered to the main conflict seeing as she sides with Ultron, but frankly, I felt that particular plot point was super forced. The twins siding with Ultron didn't feel like a natural development to me at all (especially seeing as that idea was invented by the movie. Ultron usually doesn't team up with a pair of superpowered humans).

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33720: May 12th 2015 at 10:32:24 AM

Off the top of my head, in addition to carrying her own in the fight scenes, Widow

  • Identified the location of Ultron's meteor, allowing the Avengers to begin the evacuation early.
  • Recovered the Casket from Ultron's truck and delivered it to Quinjet.
  • Saved Captain America from being effortlessly murdered by Ultron.
  • Pushed Banner into a hole, overriding his decision to cut and run, thereby directly resulting in the Hulk being present for the final battle.

edited 12th May '15 10:33:18 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33721: May 12th 2015 at 10:33:18 AM

The thing is, the subplots weren't really that unfocussed, especially not Hawkeyes. It is an important element in the larger themes of the movie.

alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
#33722: May 12th 2015 at 10:36:43 AM

[up][up][up] I think you missed my point. My point was that the subplots are the movie. The main plot is, yes, Iron Man 4, which means that the subplots are necessary in order for the movie to truly be about the Avengers.

Getting rid of the subplots and the characters related to them gets rid of the heart of the movie. What's left is more streamlined, yes, but also not very interesting or fun.

spashthebandragon thebandragoness from USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
thebandragoness
#33723: May 12th 2015 at 10:37:04 AM

[up][up][up]Iron Man built Ultron. Hulk smashed up a city. Black Widow, uh... found a meteor or something.

[up][up]What was the theme of the movie, exactly? That humanity doesn't deserve to get wiped out by robots?

[up]I feel like Avengers besides Tony could've been in the movie and contributed to the main plot in a meaningful way, but they just didn't. Maybe the building of Ultron could've been a group effort, so that the blame didn't fall squarely on Tony's (and Bruce's) shoulders?

edited 12th May '15 10:40:18 AM by spashthebandragon

I've got fanfics for Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash Bandicoot, and Spyro the Dragon.
alliterator Since: Jan, 2001
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33725: May 12th 2015 at 10:42:34 AM

It was a group effort between Tony and Bruce.

The others aren't really much in the way of science guys.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

Total posts: 186,763
Top