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Welcome to the main discussion thread for the Marvel Cinematic Universe! This pinned post is here to establish some basic guidelines. All of the Media Forum rules still apply.

  • This thread is for talking about the live-action films, TV shows, animated works, and related content that use the Marvel brand, currently owned by Disney.
  • While mild digressions are okay, discussion of the comic books should go in this thread. Extended digressions may be thumped as off-topic.
  • Spoilers for new releases should not be discussed without spoiler tagging for at least two weeks. Rather, each title should have a dedicated thread where that sort of conversation is held. We can mention new releases in a general sense, but please be courteous to people who don't want to be spoiled.

If you're posting tagged spoilers, make sure that the film or series is clearly identified outside the spoiler tagging. People need to know what will be spoiled before they choose to read the post.

    Original post 
Since Thor and now Captain America came out this year, I wanted to get what Tropers thought of the concept and execution of the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general. Personally I love the idea and wonder why this idea hasn't been seriously tried before. It sorta seems to me like the DCAU in movie form (And well, ummm, with Marvel), and really 'gets' the comic book feel of a shared universe while not being completely alienating.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2024 at 3:09:00 PM

PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#33351: May 10th 2015 at 1:09:48 PM

Otherwise, wouldn't the Empire be training its soldiers to use it, seeing as they've got a couple of Force masters in charge?

The Sith are rather paranoid about being betrayed. They wouldn't want a bunch of superpowered soldiers running around.

And Yoda only trains Luke because its Luke's story. Its not the story of the Rebels.

There was never any indication that the Force is something anyone can learn!

"It surrounds us. It binds us all together." Or something to that effect.

Sorry. I really hate the midicholrin thing.

edited 10th May '15 1:11:17 PM by PurpleDalek

Zarek Rollin' rollin' rollin' from Jakku Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
#33352: May 10th 2015 at 1:14:08 PM

And Yoda only trains Luke because its Luke's story. Its not the story of the Rebels.

Yoda's a bit of a jerk, then, ain't he? Why's he only teaching Luke? Why's he in hiding when he could be helping fight the Empire?

...Hang on, gotta make this relevant to the thread. Uhh...I dunno, whose everyone's favorite Avenger?

"We're home, Chewie."
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#33353: May 10th 2015 at 1:16:25 PM

Hulk. The only one who's focused on smashing rather than wisecracks. coolevil grin

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#33354: May 10th 2015 at 1:20:38 PM

@Gaon, last page: Ignoring the laws of the universe as one knows it isn't magic, it simply means one's understanding of the universe is wrong.

@Purple Dalek, last page: You can explain those universes scientifically, but not with our world's science, because their universes work on different rules.

edited 10th May '15 1:20:54 PM by Victin

PurpleDalek Since: Sep, 2011
#33355: May 10th 2015 at 1:21:08 PM

Look, I'm not mad because it contradicts canon or some shit like that. I'm mad because it implies hard work is worthless and that being born into the right family is the way to success. Let's leave it at that.

[up][up] Hey, if "Puny god!" isn't a wisecrack I don't know what is.tongue

edited 10th May '15 1:21:16 PM by PurpleDalek

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33356: May 10th 2015 at 1:41:00 PM

I honestly don't need a scientific explanation. I only need to get an idea what a character can and can't do. That was one of the great things about the first Avenger movie, it established how powerful the team members are in relation to each other very neatly. And Age of Ultron is the same. How fast is Quicksilver? Well, faster than an out of control vehicle, but not so fast that he can't get hit by a stray bullet. How reliable is Wanda's ability? Not so reliable that she can't fail. Sometimes it is difficult for her to influence minds, and she can get taken out by the "weakest" of the Avengers if he catches her by surprise. And Vision? Well, if he has the power to keep Ultron away from the relevant codes, he also has the power to control them himself if he really wants to.

edited 10th May '15 1:41:25 PM by Swanpride

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#33357: May 10th 2015 at 1:44:55 PM

Sanderson's First Law. I never get tired of it.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#33358: May 10th 2015 at 1:59:37 PM

...Hang on, gotta make this relevant to the thread. Uhh...I dunno, whose everyone's favorite Avenger?

I veer wildly between Vision and the Wasp.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33359: May 10th 2015 at 2:02:29 PM

In the comics, it was Spidey - especially during the time where Aunt May and Mary Jane were staying with him in Avengers Tower (I've been trying to track as much of that short era as I kind - I know they appeared in Spider-Man's own series, but did they also appear in other titles during that time?). He brings a perspective to the team that few other characters really can.

In the movies, it's probably Cap. I like Banner, but I don't necessarily like Hulk as much.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#33360: May 10th 2015 at 2:02:35 PM

@Victin: The idea isn't that the wizard is using arcane knowledge. The idea is that the wizard is altering the laws of physics and logic to suit his will.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33361: May 10th 2015 at 2:05:16 PM

A better way of putting that is that, in many portrayals of magic, there exist two sets of rules - the rules for the universe at large and the rules for magic - which is thus defined as a set of rules that exists independently of the rules for everyone else, with varying degrees of integration depending on the series. Because magic is ultimately based on individual will (and is often effect without cause as a result) such a separation might in some cases even be necessary to explain how it works.

It's important to note that fiction can get away with that because it's fiction - you can have the benefit of saying "the world has certain rules, and magic is a means of using one's will to circumvent the rules" despite it not making much sense when applied to the real world, as long as it's established how that Magic A ultimately works and not just an Ass Pull.

It's also worth noting, though, that not every series that uses magic has a separation in such a way. Star Wars doesn't, for example.

edited 10th May '15 2:10:35 PM by KnownUnknown

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#33362: May 10th 2015 at 2:07:02 PM

@ Gaon- Really well put. That's my "issue" with AOU. It's kind of clever to show Tony extracting the Stone and figuring out it's a computer. But the creation of Ultron and Vision does seem to fall too far on the side of "messing with the rules of reality".

I mean Tony isn't analyzing magic and making science; he's bashing things with magic and hoping to get the result he wants (which I guess you can argue is an "experiment", but I'm not really buying it).

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#33363: May 10th 2015 at 2:11:44 PM

@Gaon: If there's a set of laws of nature that are usually in place, and a wizard comes in and changes the ways those laws works, it simply means there is a higher set of laws governing how the original laws can change. As long as there is a limit to how much the wizard can warp reality, there is a law in place stopping them from being omnipotent. Even then, depending on the degree of omnipotence, there could be laws limiting that power, but I think it becomes a semantic discussion at that point.

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#33364: May 10th 2015 at 2:12:01 PM

@Favorite Avenger:

  • In the comics it's a tie between Peter, Janet and Carol.
  • In the movies it's Cap or Thor.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33365: May 10th 2015 at 2:12:40 PM

[up][up]

It's important to note that fiction can get away with that because it's fiction - you can have the benefit of saying "the world has certain rules, and magic is a means of using one's will to circumvent the rules" in ones setting despite it not making much sense when applied to the real world, as long as it's still internally established how that Magic A ultimately works and not just an Ass Pull.

I specifically said that (edited slightly here) because I wanted to avoid that point. While true in some settings, a point like that is kind of missing the concept of the convention as portrayed in general.

It's also still applying the idea that the concept of magic is somehow counter to science, which isn't true. Just because something can be scientifically understood (and in many cases, it can be) doesn't mean it's not still magic, depending on the series.

A better yet: while as a greater set the rules of the universe include both Magical and Non-Magical systems, that does not mean that those rules actually work in tandem as part of one system. Depending on how they're written, they may in fact run counter, circumvent or even contradict one another, a quality that can only exist in fictional settings.

edited 10th May '15 2:20:02 PM by KnownUnknown

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#33366: May 10th 2015 at 2:16:24 PM

@Favorite Avenger: My favorite's Cap, hands down, and not just for my all-time favorite Avenger, but my all-time Favorite Superhero in General.

"Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — No, you move."

As for my least favorite Avenger, hoo boy. This guy's only been in the comics so far, but you'd better pray he never makes it into the movies: The Sentry. My gosh, the freaking Sentry. He was basically Marvel trying to do yet another 'Beware the Superman', (the last time they did this was the fantastic Squadron Supreme,) but this time, they were determined to outdo themselves. And by that, I mean they created a character that is basically a Mary Sue made manifest, inserting itself in the storied history of the Marvel Universe as if it were some long-lost amazing hero of Marvel's past only to steadily evolve into some uber-powerful Grimdark monster that destroys everything in its' wake. And now, after it appeared that he finally kicked the bucket, it seems that Remender apparently brought him back as a freaking horseman of Apocalypse. All in all, he's a 'hero' that, after his initial miniseries was over and done with, was best left forgotten.

edited 10th May '15 2:16:58 PM by kkhohoho

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#33367: May 10th 2015 at 2:19:58 PM

[up][up]If you're talking about how the characters understand magic working, the character doesn't necessarily need to understand how magic works. If you're talking about how the narrative presents magic, it doesn't mean the public necessarily is told the truth about how magic works. If you're talking about a work recreating the concept of logic to allow that to happen, then while it's valid in-universe, it still can't recreate the concept of logic outside its fiction universe, where I live. I'm saying that because I don't really see any other logical way reality can be warped and the explanation not be "reality doesn't work the way you thought it did", but I could be mistaken.

edited 10th May '15 2:20:22 PM by Victin

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#33368: May 10th 2015 at 2:21:06 PM

Cap and Black Widow. Cap because in a world of mopey heroes with questionable morals, it is so refreshing to see a boy scout again. And Black Widow because she is awesome on so many levels. Somehow she and Cap are always the characters who make the hard decisions. Flying a bomb into space is heroic. But having to decide to close the portal and actually doing it in the belief that you are cutting off the way home for one of your fellow fighter, that is gutsy on a totally different level. Taking down Shield to destroy Hydra with it was a similar hard decision they had to made. And in Age of Ultron, Black Widow and Cap have again the whole talk about "we can't rescue those people and have to make the hard decision, but we'll stick around to the very end". Compared to them the other Avengers are all pussies.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#33369: May 10th 2015 at 2:21:38 PM

Spider-Man is my favorite avenger. In the movie my favorite avenger is hulk.

Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#33370: May 10th 2015 at 2:28:57 PM

Iron Man. Feel like it's a less popular choice than one would think.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33371: May 10th 2015 at 2:29:20 PM

[up]*4: Firstly, regardless of whether the reader or the characters know the ins and out about how the magical system works, the writer should. Writers not knowing how their magical system works internally is what leads to ass-pulls.

There's probably a point to why a lot of writers equate magical beings to alternate dimensions, because it's a good way of putting it - in those settings (which includes, for instance, Avatar The Last Airbender after the age of Wan, or pretty much any series that has a "spirit world" of some kind. It also includes the Marvel Universe with characters like Dormammu), magic is the result of applying the mechanics of a wholly separate plane of existence to a different one, where it may or may not be toxic in a general sense.

Internal magic is where what would otherwise be separate planes of existence exist within the same plane, if that makes any sense. It can be understood, thus, that a mage can speed up time, but it can also be established that time speeding up is not something that is necessarily natural.

In that sense, the "rules of the universe" are a set, not a system. It includes separate systems, which can exist independently of each other. Because of that, the universe as a whole can be understood - scientifically even - but understanding the rules of the universe means acknowledging that those systems are separate.

That's why magic is so typically otherworldly (if not dimensional, it's often the result of godlike or spiritual power), because it makes that sort of thing easier to explain. In Lord of the Rings, for example, magic is explicitly the result of divine power (the wizards, like Gandalf, are essentially angels), which also explains why "real" magic is so rare in that setting.

That's the crux of the point: in a universe with magic, a character can know exactly how magic works (that is, there's no "you just don't understand it" or "sufficiently advanced technology" at play) and still or even should be aware that it is an entirely separate system to the other laws of the universe and/or is otherwordly. This is possible because it's a work of fiction.

Of course, this is all more of an attempt to pin down a definition. The main thing going against magic in media being actually another aspect of the rest of the world is that isn't not typically portrayed that way in media - thus requiring Suspension of Disbelief - and it's a very old trope so there's a bit of Grandfather Clause in there too. The fact that it exists in a way that doesn't make sense in real life is just part of the trope.

edited 10th May '15 2:37:36 PM by KnownUnknown

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#33372: May 10th 2015 at 2:30:21 PM

[up][up][up]And that's actually something I wanted to bring up too. I like Spiderman, I really do, but not as an Avenger, or at least not as he's usually been used. Although, to be fair, he was used in basically the same way as most of Bendis' characters were during his run; that is to they say, they weren't really used; for the most part, they didn't really get to do anything of importance, or anything that made them stand out; they just went around punching things half the time until the day was saved. On top of that, Spidey had it worse because, since he had his own book, that meant that most of his Character Development was regulated to that book instead of Avengers, and since he wasn't a leader like Cap or Tony, he didn't get a whole lot of focus.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm not open to Spidey still being on the team, but there needs to be something done with him in the Avengers books themselves, outside of his own books. Otherwise, why bother putting him on the team if he's only going to be there just to be there?

edited 10th May '15 2:30:45 PM by kkhohoho

Victin Since: Dec, 2011
#33373: May 10th 2015 at 2:37:08 PM

[up][up]I think I see your point now, but I still disagree with the notion I should accept magic as something from "another world" (specifically a reference to the last two paragraphs of your post) only because it's the easier explanation. I don't want the easier explanation, I want the "most correct one". But a work explicitly needs to present magic that way for me to be against its representation of magic.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#33374: May 10th 2015 at 2:38:39 PM

That's not what I meant. I meant more that settings that make magic be something from another world make their magic easier to explain as a result.

In settings where magic is internal, it doesn't come from another universe. But looking at settings that explain it that way are a good way to get into the subject, because that separation makes the qualities of magic as a concept a bit more obvious.

Like, the easiest "magical" character to understand (imo) is Mxyzptlk, even if he's not explicitly magic in-universe.

[down] And yeah, it bugs me that people say "science" in conversations like that when what they really mean is usually "modern technology."

edited 10th May '15 2:42:10 PM by KnownUnknown

C105 Too old for this from France Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Too old for this
#33375: May 10th 2015 at 2:40:58 PM

Re: Science vs Magic. In most stories opposing the two I usually get the impression that "magic" is people doing amazing things with some latin words and strange gestures, while "science" is people doing amazing things with technobabble and shiny devices, but the results are most of the time a violation of common sense and of the laws of physics in both cases. In the MCU Tony Stark is closer to a Spark than an actual scientist.

edited 10th May '15 2:41:35 PM by C105

Whatever your favourite work is, there is a Vocal Minority that considers it the Worst. Whatever. Ever!.

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